How Many Notches Is Enough?

If you’re banging girls from a specific region or city, there comes a point of diminishing return where an additional notch no longer improves your game. Your earlier notches quickly help you realize something new about human nature or what you like in women, but eventually new conquest will stop adding value beyond physical pleasure.

This fact isn’t a justification for you to slack off, because there is a notch milestone you need to hit that allows you to build a foundation of game. This foundation is needed to not only develop the skills for landing women, but also be able to identify what quality is. Because America has so many substandard women, you need to bang quite a few of them to pick out quality while simultaneously learning how to feed their hamster brains (i.e., pass tests, tease, put out an aloof air, and send text messages with grammar mistakes). Most importantly, hitting this number prevents you from getting tricked into committing with a low-quality chick that robs you of your happiness or ruins your life in a failed long-term relationship.

The minimum notch count for America is 25. Until you hit that number, you don’t know enough about women in order to make correct decisions that satisfies both your mind and penis. Note that this number is only for the United States. In countries where the standard of women is higher, you need to bang far less women in order to possess the right tools for successful game and relationships. Let’s go over those counts for other countries I’ve lived in:

Argentina: 6 notch minimum
Brazil: 8
Colombia: 6
Croatia: 8
Estonia: 6
Iceland: 22
Lithuania: 4
Poland: 4
Sweden: 18
Ukraine: 6

The lower quality the women, the longer you need to be a player in order to gain enough experience to have successful long-term relationships (or even get into one). There are guys in Eastern Europe whose first bang is with a beautiful sweetheart who blows away the first 25 notches of your life. They are walking hand-in-hand with their girls right now, totally oblivious to the fact that men of better means are finding it extremely difficult to get what they got in spite of having more game, money, style, and muscles.

If you hit the minimum notch count, and then decide to be a game hater or men’s rights activist, I will wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. But if you’re living in a big American city, have two notches, and are posting “only looks matter” comments all day, you still have a lot of work to do. The reason is because you don’t understand your country’s women and you don’t have the level of experience needed to criticize those who understand the women and culture enough to know how and why the sex act occurs. The irony is that I would be skeptical of an American MRA with ten notches, but pay closer attention to one from Estonia who has that same count.

Going past the minimum notch count for your country will not uncover some deep truth of humanity or unlock a treasure chest of happiness or game enlightenment. In the States, banging 100 girls will barely put you in a better boat than banging 25. The extra 75 will be mostly for entertainment, stories, or laughs. In a country like Lithuania, where the girls make for great girlfriends, being a player is actually a waste of time. You will spend all that upfront energy to get bangs but not receive the relationship benefits that Lithuanian women provide.

Countries with low quality women will create a class of men who play the game permanently, warranting calls of “man up” by those same women who would grind to dust any man who made the incorrect choice to get into a relationship with them.

An unfortunate double bind exists in America. Getting the needed 25 notches to make correct relationship decisions will also tell you, clearly and unequivocally, not to get into relationships with American women. Compare that to Eastern Europe, where every new notch makes it clear that being a cutthroat player will bring you less happiness than relationships. There are less benefits when chasing notches in Eastern Europe since most girls you get into bed are indeed relationship material.

The player is not born. He’s created in broken societies where early experiences made it all too clear that relationships with his women would be far from his best interests. The more time I spend away from America, the less I want to be a player.

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  • Markie Antifeminist

    ROosh you are the legend. We can’t wait to hear your ROmanian bangs. I am sure they are amazing.
    I made all my friends to be devoted fans of your blog

  • Brandon 2.0

    you make me really want to travel…

  • Markie Antifeminist

    Being a MRA is the best thing someone can be. And also having multiple relationships with nice loving cute sweet caring girls.

  • Anonymous

    What Eastern Europe are you referring to? Not all countries are the same. For example the Czech Republic is closer to the US of A than “Eastern Europe” you describe.
    And as far as I know all Eastern European countries have high divorce rates and feminist courts when it comes to family law. So the the end game is at least similar.

  • http://www.gavinmadden.blogspot.com.au Gavin Madden

    Interesting post. It would seem the women of eastern Europe are softening you up and rightly so, they are glorious!

  • http://www.seductionpath.com Angelsin

    Amen! :)

  • TK

    Roosh, what is your minimum number for Romania ?

    Thanks in advance

    [Roosh: Ask me in 3 months.]

  • doclove

    Roosh
    That last paragraph is pure gold. So is telling men how many notch counts they will need in each country or locale before they even consider a long term relationship, LTR, where one hasn’t lived with the woman nor married her as a man in his 40s and younger. The irony of course is that the more women ride the cock carousel, the less likely they are to be LTR material because of increasing mental instability as well as sheer viciousness and the more men march through the pussy parade, the less likely it is they want to settle down because he finds women less trustworthy as well as increasing the mentality of why buy the cow when you get the milk for free. Fred Reed in his number 445 article entitled “Hooking Up” writes about this on his site at http://www.fredoneverything.net/hookingup.shtml

  • David

    With Lithuania, Ukraine, and Russia being as high or higher than the US for divorce why would you rate them so high for LTR or wives?

  • Keith

    Great post Roosh. I reached 25 early last year living in NYC, at the age of 32. Much more cynical now of american women than when I was under a notch count of 10. I’ve known for the past 2 years that an American woman is not for me. My company may be sending associates to Europe for 3-5 years at a time so there is some hope…

  • http://www.vivalamanosphere.com Jack

    Great article, and well put. It put me in mind of an article I was researching recently on the MGTOW survival guide. Given how tangential the mgtow ideology is to what we do here on the ‘game’ side of the manosphere, the parallels and conclusions drawn between actively acquiring notches and passively letting time go by was interesting. (link here: http://mgtowsurvivalguide.blogspot.com/2011/02/hangin-on-by-chris-in-or.html).

    Jack

  • Markie Antifeminist
  • doclove

    I meant to say above that Roosh gave you a fairly accurate number of how many women you need to game and bang before you consider a LTR without shacking up with or marrying a woman of a particular country or locale if you are a man in his 40s or younger That is also the minimum number you will need to game and bang before you even consider shacking up with or marrying a woman of a particular country or locale if you are a man in his 40s or younger. Even this number may not help you which means you could be harmed because of the rape the male divorce laws, palimony and Violence Against Woman Act, men are always wrong American culture etc. Really, it makes little logical sense to shack up or marry a woman in the USA or to do so with most American women. I understand your emotional need to do so, but it is an act of insanity which has great risks and could ruin your life. I admit to having these emotions to shack up or marry a woman and produce my progeny too, but I know that to do so is probably too high of a risk and should not be done. I’m a 45 year old man and what I have to do more to get less than my great-grandfather grandfather and father did with getting women, increasing wealth and other things. I’m not alone either as most men in their 40s and younger must do the same to one extent or another and they too must struggle harder for less. The laws and culture are stacked against you because you are a man and are meant to harm you if you decide to shack up with or marry a woman or produce offspring with her so my advice is don’t do it.

    Men in my great-grandfather’s time may have been stuck in marriages to women they didn’t want anymore, but at least there wasn’t VAWA and divorce rape laws and culture against men. A man was expected to support his wife with all his might but he rarely competed against woman and if he worked hard and followed the rules then he could reasonably expect to support himself and his family of a wife and children as he was socially expected to do so whereas we are not as able through little or no fault of our own nor as expected to do so. They probably got more acts of sex but only from their wives or paid prostitutes whereas my generation and younger will definitely get higher notch counts not only from non-prostitutes but from women overall.

    Most (American) women never seem to understand that they as a group certainly get the kinds of men they really want as a rule rather than an exception even if certain individuals with that group don’t want it. Even as individuals, many women say one thing and do another, and this is by far less the case with men. You can’t say one thing and do another and expect people especially men to believe you. You women can’t make it difficult for men to be providers and protectors of women and then increase competition against him by entering the workforce or collect welfare off the enslaved taxpayer as well as pass draconian laws against men along with expecting the police, courts etc. to do things for you while legally and socially hindering men’s ability and desire to protect you, and then expect him to perform the way and as well as his great-grandfather did. You women want men to play by 1913 or 1953 rules and you women play by 2013 rules and not 1913 or 1953 rules, and then you get pissed when he doesn’t. Why should I or any man play by those rules and get cheated, crushed and humiliated when you don’t have to do so? Would you play by those rules? It’s rhetorical question as we here know the answer. Most of you women to one extent or another have difficulty thinking outside your own heads or even consider what another might want or need or think. You women made your own beds, now lie in them.

    I’m trying to get a more direct link to the article by Vietnam War Veteran and former U.S. Marine Fred Reed
    http://www.fredoneverything.net/HookingUp.shtml

  • beta_plus

    How many notches for Denmark?

  • santiago solari

    “and send text messages with grammar mistakes”

    As someone who as a young prototype G lost countless girls due to “poor text game” full of smileys, proper punctuation and precise grammer I really want to express my appreciation for the above line… :bow: :bow: :bow

  • Axe

    ” and send text messages with grammar mistakes” xD !!
    Shit, and we let these children vote ? no wonder the west is in free fall.

  • Axe

    “How many notches for Denmark?
    Id say around 1000..then you give up and leave the country.

  • Michael

    Why 25 ? After you’ve banged 5-10 you discover that they are all vapid, poisonous ke$ha wannabees..whats the point in going on really, you know what you need to know. There is no real chance of the next 20-15 being that much different. You just waste you’re time and youth..esp if your aiming for 100 bangs which for most normal people would take a lot of time.
    After 5-10 bangs, if you have any intelligence, you have drawn your conclusions..and you know that 95% of Western women are not girlfriend material.
    And the 5% that really is are taken long ago..usually married between the age of 18-20..what you have left is 35 carousel riders who have careers in HR departments.
    I say fucking no !

  • Michael

    Btw, my notch count is around 25 and I wished it wasnt.

  • http://www.the3bromigos.com MattC

    Out of general curiosity, what do you find the average notch counts for these women are? I would imagine that the “lower quality” women of America have higher counts, whilst the women in those countries you mention have lower counts.

    What seems to be an average number, per country? Or do you not get this information?

  • Ninja man

    I live in the U.K and we have almost the same, if not identical issues with women making the notch count 25 too.

    5s behave like 8s while 9s behave like spoilt uneducated goddesses its unreal to behold.

    in my college days i always new deep down there was something wrong, big thanks to people sharing wisdom, may each one teach one creating new road maps leading to a fulfilling life!

  • Khole

    @michael if you’re banging Kesha wannabes, you should get out of the club and into the bookstore or cafe. I meet most women at independent cafes while they are studying. I then take them to quiet bars; avoiding the club music and mentality altogether

  • madmax

    well said Roosh

  • madmax

    Ninja man,

    I am in UK and it’s shit, I think it’s worst than in America.

    Just a while ago I was ‘bantering’ with a sexy British broad through texts etc and she wanted to meet me, and you know what, I didn’t even bother. I am tired of this banter shit, Roosh summed it up pretty well: hamster brains.
    I just wanted to fuck her without even talking to her, ah ah. Fuck her, I don’t care.

  • madmax

    PS. actually Roosh came in the UK and saw for himself how shit it is for women. I am only sorry he didn’t have a good time.

  • kasparov

    so true. I’m up to 54 notches now…but barely anything has changed since around my 20th notch or so, except I care less and less about the women I meet now. like you said, it’s mostly just for kicks, and because what the fuck else am I gonna do while I’m stuck in this country?

  • VUBBS

    It’s funny I had a similar or something that could be considered a paralellism to this thread 1-2 days before it was out. But still I think it came up with the comparison between Romanian women and American women in the forum.

    When I was living in Argentina it took me around 8-10 notches to figure the Argentine woman out. I had a couple of LTR’s but then when I decided to be single I finally got into their psychology and I just surf game with them. I know exactly how their mind operate and what to say and not to say to get their hamsters spinning.

    When I moved to Germany, my success rate has lowered drastically and I go throughout dry spells (specially in the winter) and yesterday I realised exactly why.

    Besides being focusing my energy and libido in surviving in an environment that is not mine. I haven’t been trying to get honest with the girls and talk to them about what they like and what they don’t like.

    By comparison in Buenos Aires as soon as I was figuring something out from the girls, I would ask a girl if that would work on her. Her first reaction would be to say “What? Are you serious? Of course not” Which in their psychology means “Yes, that works like a charm” and then apply that methodology on her and prove her that works.

    They were instantly dismantled. And this was like a RPG game, as I collected XP points I could move into harder targets.

    There was always one that would be more difficult than others, but once in the Game, she just becomes the entertainment.

    On the other hand, besides the fact that I’ve been as mentioned before busy handling a lot of other stuff that takes away my drive, time and energy. I realised that not only I’ve not put enough effort -or at least not enough to realise this earlier-.

    I haven’t been consistently and methodical, or even curious in solving out the ‘German Game’ even though I live in Berlin which is a very international city, and there are a lot of hot girls from around the world. The game and the psychology of European Girls is completely different. Multiply that for the fact that they are from all over the world, some american, some south american, some italian, some spanish, some polish, some russian, some british, etc, and everyone pretty much stays with their own game.

    In america or at least from my experience in NY, all girls, adapt to the NY or the American vibe or game, or however you wanna call it. Thus, giving the rules of engagement pretty easy (and specially if you come from Argentinian game) and been travelling around Europe for the last years.

    I bet that if I spend enough and honest time trying to figure out how German, or any type of social girl likes their men, or at least being picked up, the girls will actually be willingly interested to help me out, because that’s what they all do. Their genetics activates and they will be eager to please you helping you out to get laid. You get the respect because you are in this vibe “I deserve it because I actually want to do it and have the guts to stand for it”.

    Thanks Roosh!

  • george

    i only have 4 notches and they tickle in so slowly…

    2007 – first notch, enter LTR
    2010 – LTR broken, swallowed red pill
    2011 – 0 notches, started to game
    2012 – 2 notches
    2013 – 1 notch so far

    i’m sort of wondering: how horny would a guy have to be to invest the time, energy and ressources to collect notches in the tens? even if they do come in exponentially… because i’m pretty horny, go out more and approach more than most redpill guys i know

    how is it even fisically possible!

  • george

    what i acully wanted to say: thanks roosh! :)

  • http://www.ruxman.com Ruxman

    It’s good to see the mention of relationships here sometimes.

  • Faaksurfing

    Hey Roosh you should bang all those couchsurfing chicks, come on, it’s a TRADITION ;)

  • Laura

    Send text messages with grammar mistakes? Not for me, thank you. :) ‘Internet speak’ and poor grammar really turns me off… I’m a non-native English speaker myself, so if a man’s English appears to be worse than mine, I suddenly have good reason to believe I’m the smarter/more educated one.

    And Lithuanian girls (especially 7s and up) tend to be gold diggers, so I wouldn’t bank on Lithuania being an LTR paradise.

  • DrG

    Laura, and why would you make such a comment that Lithuanian girls who are 7+ are gold diggers? That is a major stereotype. I tend to be from LT originally and can tell you that gold digging is not present anymore than it is in neighboring Russia, Latvia, or Poland. Shoot, there are many good looking, quality women including some of my female cousins who don’t care much about money but just want a guy who is employed, single (not a guy with kids or divorcee) and has good family values. They are not looking to leave LT for some Italian tourist who would swoop them off their feet with presents.

  • http://www.introvertedplayboy.com Introverted Playboy

    I think the higher your standards, the tougher it will be for you to find a great woman for a LTR, regardless of your culture or background.

    A huge portion of the men who enter LTRs early in life (here in the US) are either desperate/ needy, or clueless about what their real identity and desires are.

    I also think America is way too diverse to generalize about the girls this much. The country is just too big, with too many people in it.

    Corporate women in New York are very different from Hippie women in Oregon, who are different from Cowgirls in Texas, and so on.

  • Anonymous

    Whats the notch count if you live in canada

  • chris

    Ironic isn’t it, the crucible of feminism will breed the most anti-feminist of men around.

  • chris

    Or put another way;

    the crucible of feminism will create the very antithesis of the men feminists (claim to) want to create.

  • Infantry

    Frankly I think you need to meet beyond minimum notch count to be a useful MRA. If you’re blindly filled with rage, you don’t have the objectivity required to sveltly cut a feminist off at the knees while coming off to the audience as rational and learned.

    I support the MRM, but I use game and MGTOW PT lifestyle theory to take care of myself and my own needs first. Running a harem or being in a LTR with a quality girl allows you to be more objective about western society and women.

    Remember lads, look after yourselves first, and then worry about helping others (assuming thats your thing).

  • Nomad77

    Your argument is fundamentally flawed. All of the girls a guy bang could come from the same group. He could bang all messed up girls or all college girls. Which is the case for most guys. For your theory to work the sample of women would have to be representative of the population of the country. A guy would have to bang a few women from all of the major socioeconomic groups and subcultures to get a true picture of the potential of the women in any given country. Even you, I doubt is able to do this.

  • polish man

    Roosh, as a Polish man who has had experience not only with Polish and other Eastern European women but also with a number of Western women I have to command you for your ability to pin point the differences in civilisation and culture. Most of what you write about is true. The girls in most Eastern European countries are on a completely different level when it comes to relationship potential compared to Western women. I can testify that this also applies to Belarussian, Slovakian, Hungarian, Russian and Bulgarian women. More or less they still are like Lithuaninas or Polish girls.

    I have to make several reservations however:

    1. The divorce rate in my country, and all the countries in the region is around 50%. Basically a women here, once she becomes your wife, starts a process of gradual deterioration. She has constantly increasing expectations and she starts nagging relentlessly.
    I know for many of your readers Eastern Europe seems like paradise. And it sure may well be one of the last remaining normal places in this damned world. But please make it clear in your writing, that these wonderful relationships with the Lithuanian and Polish girls you have had the pleasure to experience, have only lasted several months at best. I assure you that no amount of game at your disposal, would stop them from deteriorating if you were to wife one of these precious little things up.
    I truly believe this is just a matter of female biology. Yes girls here are not damaged the way they are in DC. But the biological, genetically devised wiring inside of them is the same as of any America whore who’s seen +50 dicks at age 25. Don’t believe for a second that women here have a different biological prerogative. This is basic red pill knowledge. Culture is different here. Yes. Lithuaninas or Belarussians are sexy, coy and feminine. Yes. But they are women still. Ask any of the miserable fucks at any bar in any city of the region about their wife. Then you will get the truth.

    2. Before you become jelous of Polish or Slovakian or other Eastern European men, who have only banged one cute sweetheart that blows away 25 pumps and dumps in America, please consider the living conditions here. Ok let’s put Poland aside, as it has at least several big cities. Take Lithuania for example. It is a country where a man’s life is a struggle from start to end. Basically the level of problems, distractions, blowbacks and all sorts of things fucking up daily life here is unimaginable to an average American from the middle class.
    Imagine if you were the average Lithuanian born in Kaunas or Vilnius. How would you go about developing your game, muscles, looks and means in general if life was a struggle from the very beginning, from early teens. See, if this region really was such a paradise, each and every single country wouldn’t be in such a catastrophic mess demographically. People are fleeing Poland, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Slovakia… basically every country in the region. On top of the waves of emmigration, the birthrates are such of a warzone. Every single coutnry in the region has a birthrate closer to 1.0 than the 2.1 per women. That is not a coincidence and please consider these facts. This region, all of it, is in a process of degradation, both economical and societal, since the fall of communism.

    OK, these are my five cents. I just felt it necessary to put a counter perspective to the rosy image of Eastern Europe presented by Roosh. It’s a great place to visit as an American love tourist. Sexy, feminine slim women. But to actually be born here and live here is a tragedy.

  • Tv game

    How many people recognized you so far after you being in the national news?:-)

  • Willy Wonka

    If I was close to 25 when I lived in the US… but then left the US and crossed the USA notch count threshold, while outside of the US with sweeter, nicer girls of countries you would likely need a lower notch count for…. then where the hell does that leave me?

    Hmmm… maybe we should stop talking about notches and develop a point system. An American girl is worth 0.3 points. A Polish girl is worth 2.5 points. Your goal is to get 10 points before you’re ready for a relationship. Would this work??

  • Laura

    @DrG – I’m saying this from experience, since I’m Lithuanian myself. :) It depends a lot on where exactly she’s from, but I did know a lot of pretty girls who were quite open about it.

  • ROOSH is THE ONE
  • HCE

    Where did your “I got played” article go?

    [Roosh: It's on Return Of Kings.]

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  • http://www.boytoystory.com Boy Toy

    Interesting thoughts.. Even though you might be right about some of it, I think you forget to consider the fact that some guys just WANT to be players, and some guys just WANT the safety of a relationship. I dont think I would have exchanged my 100+ lays for a girlfriend, if I had lived in eastern europe.
    But it has probably also something to do with age… When you were younger and lived in America, you wanted to be a player and fuck a lot of girls.. Now that you are older and more experienced, your values and desires change too.
    At some point I will probably also quit my one night stands and get a girlfriend. But it wont be the next 5 years, that’s for sure haha :D

  • Dat bro

    I’m somewhere around 32 American girls. out of all of them, I’d say 5 were good relationship and possibly marriage material.

    While the rest of them have their own set of individual problems, from being legitimately crazy to overly entitled to too hot for their own good, one commonality I noticed is that ALL of them could never be happy with what they had. ALL of them had some form of stimulus addiction, like ADHD Monkeys in a room full of shiny objects. They are all good examples of women going feral — a few of them didn’t even have qualms with telling me they were actively seeing other guys while we were seeing each other.

    I know anecdotal experience is shit, and even though only a tiny 15% of these women were of dating quality, they still exist.

    unfortunately, by Paretos principle, 15-20% of men are alphas.

    sorry betas!

  • Anonymous

    you’re so lost.i pitty you.
    plus, if somebody broke your monkey face untill now it was legit, just 4 you to see that makin’ money from shit has its risks…

  • j212

    Got a feeling this a far more realistic tally for ol’ Rooshie:

    Argentina: 0
    Brazil: 0
    Colombia: 0
    Croatia: 0
    Estonia: 0
    Iceland: 0
    Lithuania: 0
    Poland: 0
    Sweden: 0
    Ukraine: 0

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  • Standing_Strong

    Wow. If I were you guys, I’d just keel over and give up. You don’t want a strong woman who loves you, forsakes all others and actually loves you and your children. You want a slave you can be the master of.

    If “having game” means you sleep with as many women as you can, you are no better than the women you think of as objects.

    Maybe you should advocate bringing slavery back so you can fulfill your fantasies of being the master without having any character or integrity.

    At least you would be honest with yourselves.

    You wonder why it is that women divorce you, take your children away from your horrible example and find someone who knows how to be a grown up. A real man doesn’t whine about how unloved he is.

    Did all of you get ass-raped in prison and get some misguided notion that the man who puts his dick inside of you suddenly determines your future?

  • http://adelee40@gmail.com Anonymous

    Having a notch of 40+ UK women, I found finding a quality woman virtually impossible. (Thought I found one, got divorced usual story). Now contrast this to my notch count for Bulgaria of 4, out of those only 1 was not LTR material, I am now living with a Bulgarian woman in the UK and their is simply no comparison. These women are feminine, considerate and above also not lazy like English women.

  • http://adelee40@gmail.com Anonymous

    Having a notch of 40+ UK women, I found finding a quality woman virtually impossible. (Thought I found one, got divorced usual story). Now contrast this to my notch count for Bulgaria of 4, out of those only 1 was not LTR material, I am now living with a Bulgarian woman in the UK and their is simply no comparison. These women are feminine, considerate and also are not lazy like English women.

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  • http://N/A Psychonaut

    “The player is not born. He’s created in broken societies where early experiences made it all too clear that relationships with his women would be far from his best interests. The more time I spend away from America, the less I want to be a player.”

    Wow. Very cool.

  • invisiblehand85

    Outstanding insights

  • OldManTakeALook

    please keep spreading this hope

    American women are sad std garbage with no idea what world of hurt is in for them

    based on how they sell their 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s and 80s
    for their teens and 20s

  • OldManTakeALook

    and you’re a beta, since they had no qualms being with other men

    probably they were banging me

    you’re right man… sorry betas