[...] surrounded by people. You can tell how happy he was when there was a crowd around him. In this club he was respected and known, but that’s all he had. That’s all he lived for. I looked at [...]

@Hope 59

“Maybe I misinterpreted. It seemed to me that you suggested (Why should a “catch” invest so much chasing the possibility of sex with you?) that a woman who doesn’t engage in casual sex is less likely to get a man than a woman who does, because she does not offer the sex bait that other women do.”

More specifically, less likely to get a “catch”. As you mention below, there are some men who are willing to wait around 2 years for sex, but the vast majority would not be considered “catches”.

“Well we actually didn’t have sex in the first two years that we knew each other. Yes we’re weird, and we had a weird history. Love works in weird ways, too. I always loved him more than all the other men who had bodies I could touch (better bodies, more money, etc. than he did or does).”

That said, the thing that attracted you together first was that he was a man and you’re a woman. True, you waited two years before having sex and you “got to know each other better”, but the fact that you are a woman and he’s a man comes before everything else. That’s why I say “sex” is fundamental and always the bait. Your heart and soul cannot get wrapped up this way for another woman or an animal. Only for a man.

“You and other PUAs tell me that relationships are all about physical and tangible things like sex, body, beauty, money…”

I don’t consider myself a “PUA”, though many PUAs have a lot of good information to teach about one important aspect of life (though I think much of their advice would help men’s lives in general). Also, I’m not sure if anyone is saying that relationships are all about physical and tangible things. There’s a lot of kickback against the notion that the physical is *unimportant* which is complete B.S. for most men.

You may be right, but all you *know* is what people tell you.

With Sex and the City being so popular, and people being so much more honest and frank in online conversations, most women don’t bother to lie about it these days. Then again I am not that close to my female friends, so they could conceivably be lying.

I said women who don’t put out don’t have “bait”? I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying here.

Maybe I misinterpreted. It seemed to me that you suggested (Why should a “catch” invest so much chasing the possibility of sex with you?) that a woman who doesn’t engage in casual sex is less likely to get a man than a woman who does, because she does not offer the sex bait that other women do.

Sex is fundamentally what brings men and women together. Your husband/boyfriend would not be with you if you did not have a vagina and you wouldn’t be with him if he didn’t have a penis.

Well we actually didn’t have sex in the first two years that we knew each other. Yes we’re weird, and we had a weird history. Love works in weird ways, too. I always loved him more than all the other men who had bodies I could touch (better bodies, more money, etc. than he did or does).

You and other PUAs tell me that relationships are all about physical and tangible things like sex, body, beauty, money…but my experiences just happen to be very different. My heart, mind and soul were wrapped up with his long before my body was. Laugh if you want, but it is how it happened.

@56

“Personally, I don’t associate with too many women who have sex with a man within 24 hours of knowing him”

- That is only because they are lying to you or because I haven’t met your girlfriends yet!

@56 Hope

“I don’t know about the whole misery thing since LTRs have lots of ups and downs, and if people can work through them they generally get back to the happy phase again.”

Again, just judging by the success of most long term relationships, most are ultimately failures. But I don’t see that as a negative, unless needlessly you dragged something along that you know in your heart is bad.

“Studies show that married couples who work through their issues and stay together bounce back to their former levels of happiness.”

I think people who really *are* compatible kind of know it (both, not just one which is often the case). It’s hard to explain. It’s one thing to fight and to *both* understand that your partner really is The One. It’s another thing to fight and to sort of believe you can do better. Two different kinds of “ups and downs”. I’d say the latter is more common. Divorce/break-up rates back me up.

“Primarily, I am talking about the way that some men seem to put down women who don’t “put out” on the first night. You said that such women don’t have “bait,” but I disagree with that.”

I said women who don’t put out don’t have “bait”? I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying here.

Anyway, what I said was that sex is *always* the bait whether you put out early or not. Sex is fundamentally what brings men and women together. That’s just nature, but society feels the need to cover this up. Your husband/boyfriend would not be with you if you did not have a vagina and you wouldn’t be with him if he didn’t have a penis.

“Personally, I don’t associate with too many women who have sex with a man within 24 hours of knowing him…”

You may be right, but all you *know* is what people tell you.

If the divorce rate and general break-up rate is any indication, most people are miserable in their long term relationship. Why? Because the person they’re with isn’t really what they want.

I don’t know about the whole misery thing since LTRs have lots of ups and downs, and if people can work through them they generally get back to the happy phase again. Studies show that married couples who work through their issues and stay together bounce back to their former levels of happiness.

Being in a long-term relationship means shit.

Primarily, I am talking about the way that some men seem to put down women who don’t “put out” on the first night. You said that such women don’t have “bait,” but I disagree with that. Personally, I don’t associate with too many women who have sex with a man within 24 hours of knowing him, but norms are different among different social circles. Among people I know LTR is the norm, and among people you know it could be ONS is the norm.

@51 Hope

“It’s kind of funny when “players” try to tell girls who are already in long-term relationships that they don’t have what it takes to get a man.”

Being in a long-term relationship means shit. Really. If the divorce rate and general break-up rate is any indication, most people are miserable in their long term relationship. Why? Because the person they’re with isn’t really what they want.

So merely being in a long-term relationship is an indication of nothing. Only the person in the relationship knows if that’s truly the relationship they want and they may or may not admit their true feeling about the relationship publicly (or to themselves for that matter).

@53 ?

“Oh for heaven’s sake! I absolutely did not say that anywhere above, nor would I be so foolish as to make an absolute statement about a large group of individuals.”

You disagree with my restatement (doesn’t sound as nice when I re-word it), but that’s exactly what you’re saying. You’re not one of “those” women who has sex quickly. You’re “sweet and nurturing” (and “better”, though you didn’t explicitly say that).

@51 Hope

“None of the married couples I know or know of met through a quickie sex adventure.”

It’s not the majority, but don’t be surprised if you know at least one. It’s not the kind of information you volunteer though. “We had sex the first night we met, found out we really liked each other on a deeper level and just stayed together!”.

Ask your husband to do some snooping, or get some of your female acquaintances drunk and ask them.

@50 Interested Party
“So women who enjoy casual sex cannot be ‘pretty, sweet, and nurturing’?
That’s an insane false dichotomy.”

Oh for heaven’s sake! I absolutely did not say that anywhere above, nor would I be so foolish as to make an absolute statement about a large group of individuals.

My point was simple and clear and I’ve made it twice. You can re-read my previous posts if you like. I’m officially putting my side of this discussion to rest. If you’d like to continue arguing against whatever words you’d like to put in my mouth, go ahead.

@51

“None of the married couples I know or know of met through a quickie sex adventure.”

Well if they get married, it wasn’t a “quickie sex adventure”. Its hard to tell after the fact.

This happens all the time actually…

In Hollywood and TV shows, that happens all the time I’m sure. None of the married couples I know or know of met through a quickie sex adventure.

It’s kind of funny when “players” try to tell girls who are already in long-term relationships that they don’t have what it takes to get a man.

@49

“My entire point at the beginning of this conversation was that women who are pretty, sweet, and nurturing tend to seek deeper relationships and are going to be less receptive to men who are only interested in quick, casual sex.”

So women who enjoy casual sex cannot be “pretty, sweet, and nurturing”?

That’s an insane false dichotomy.

“If a guy’s main goal was sex, and he was happy enough to meet that goal with any cute girl, I never encouraged him to spend any time or money on me”

That’s exactly what you’re doing. You’re specifically trying to find a guy who’s “on the prowl” ( for either casual sex OR a so-called “deep” relationship) and convince him that you’re worth pursuing over other women. Pursuit involves the investment of resources (time + money).

I was just asking what you have to offer over these other women that would attract a “catch” to you.

“If a guy’s main goal was sex, and he was happy enough to meet that goal with any cute girl, I never encouraged him to spend any time or money on me.”

I hate to get roissy on you, but every guy’s main goal is sex. And there’s nothing wrong with that! Sexual attraction is the spark for a deeper relationship. We only care about your cooking after we’re sexually attracted. We only care about what books you like until after we’re sexually attracted. We consider a longer, “deeper” relationship after we’re sexually attracted.

Later in your post you note “I take good care of my appearance “. Good! Even you understand that if you let your appearance go to hell, all that other stuff you have to “offer” won’t matter.

Sex is always the bait.

And note, just because a guy is looking for quick sex with “any cute girl”, doesn’t mean he wouldn’t gladly commit to a long term relationship if he had quick sex with the right cute girl. This happens all the time actually…

@48 Interested Party

“I’ve no doubt you think less of this man, but you never actually called him any names.”

I never went out to judge men on their merit as human beings, just to meet men and figure out which ones had personalities and interests that would match up with mine. I was looking for a committed, loving relationship, so I only spent time trying to attract men who seemed to be interested in the same. I think it was best for eveyone concerned when I let men looking for a one night stand move on to other women. They weren’t going to meet their goal with me, so why should I waste their time?

“You’re saying your trump card is sex and that’s the best thing you have to offer to a man. And you’re not taking out your trump card for anything.”

Actually, you’re the one saying that. The words “possibility of sexual access” are a direct quote from you. My entire point at the beginning of this conversation was that women who are pretty, sweet, and nurturing tend to seek deeper relationships and are going to be less receptive to men who are only interested in quick, casual sex. These are women who have lots to offer and actually desire the opportunity to be generous, giving partners, so they look for men who have analagous qualities. It can take time to discover what a man is really about, so having sex immediately is not usually to the advantage of such women.

“A man should be willing to invest significant resources (i.e. time + money) in order to get that [sex] from you.”

If a guy’s main goal was sex, and he was happy enough to meet that goal with any cute girl, I never encouraged him to spend any time or money on me. That would only end in disappointment for both of us. Hence politely letting him move on to other women.

If a guy let me know that he was interested in a more serious partnership and he wanted to show off his potential, and if I was attracted to him, then that’s where I’d allow investment of time and energy to begin. And I never expected it to be one-sided. If I was attracted to him, I wanted to do an equally great job of letting him know how much I had to offer.

“What do you have to offer that separates you from other women (who may be prettier, more successful, etc)? Why should a “catch” invest so much chasing the possibility of sex with you? What do you do to convince a “catch” that you’re worth all that?

Is sex the best you’ve got?”

Again, the whole point of this conversation was that men on this site often complain that women aren’t nurturing, sweet, and feminine enough. Well, I’ve got all that in spades. It’s one of my great joys in life to get to know a person and then do special things for them based on what I’ve learned about their interests and passions. So I’m always listening to my man – his favorite books & performers, things that would make his life more convenient etc. and showering him with relevant gifts, gestures, and surprises.

I’m proud of who my man is in the world and his personal and professional goals. I constantly offer encouragement and support, thank him for the work he does to benefit both of us, and ask what more I can do to help. I love my own job and come home happy and with income that benefits us both.

I’m a great cook and have professional massage training. I’m responsible and organized and do my best to keep our home comfortable, lovely, and running smoothly. I’m willing to compromise for our mutual happiness. I’m not flakey – I answer calls, show up on time, and do what I’ve said I will.

I take good care of my appearance – workouts, clothes, hair & face care, etc. I may not be the most gorgeous woman on the planet, but my man always comments on how many other men check me out when we go out together. He tells me he loves how I make it clear that I am there with him, 100% loyal. He also insists that I have a perfect ass. And, yes, I am enthusiastic and creative in bed.

Many women actually seek the opportunity to offer these things in return for a loving relationship with a man of integrity and purpose who is willing to be a great partner. This kind of relationship is available to anyone who’s willing to step up to the plate and use some discernment in seeking a partner. But, as Hope points out, a lot of people aren’t yet ready. I just get frustrated when they complain about how the world doesn’t meet their unrealistic expectations of receiving exactly what they want with mininal effort.

@43

“I never judged anyone to be a “scumbag.””

To be fair, you never used that word and you in fact did say you politely listened until the conversation ended.

I’ve no doubt you think less of this man, but you never actually called him any names.

“If a guy “isn’t ready to invest resources for the possibility of sexual access,” then why should a woman put in more effort than he is willing to, especially when he indicates that there’s little chance for the type of relationship she’s looking for?”

You’re saying your trump card is sex and that’s the best thing you have to offer to a man. And you’re not taking out your trump card for anything. A man should be willing to invest significant resources (i.e. time + money) in order to get that from you.

Some questions.

What do you have to offer that separates you from other women (who may be prettier, more successful, etc)? Why should a “catch” invest so much chasing the possibility of sex with you? What do you do to convince a “catch” that you’re worth all that?

Is sex the best you’ve got?

Eugenius you are one strange bird. What you wrote makes no sense…

You are one seriously lit douche…heh.

Being attentive, nurturing, loyal and kind to one man in particular definitely represents an investment of time, energy and resources. If a guy “isn’t ready to invest resources for the possibility of sexual access,” then why should a woman put in more effort than he is willing to, especially when he indicates that there’s little chance for the type of relationship she’s looking for? (And I’m talking a similar show of loyalty, kindness, and attention, not necessarily monetary resources).

Most women are looking for love first and sex later, and most men are looking for sex first and love later. The few women who are looking for sex first get a ton of men sexually, and the few men who are looking for love first still only get a few women sexually. This is why men prefer to look for sex among the relatively fewer women who are looking for sex, because the sex they get is about the same amount regardless of their relationship status.

A lot of men say they want a sweet, nurturing, kind and loyal woman just like a lot of women say they want a nice, loyal, wonderful and gentlemanly man. However, in reality, people act differently from their stated “ideals” because most people are too short-sighted and want instant gratification (sex now) as opposed to planning for the future. Also, it’s just a fact of life that a beautiful woman can get away with having a crappy personality when young and attractive and still command a lot of male attention. That is why men sometimes bemoan that it is rare to find a beautiful and kind girl.

You seem like a very mature, intelligent and great girl. I walked the same path as you and found men who wanted love first, and I never gave any time of my day to men who wanted sex first. Unfortunately, unconditional love is difficult to find and even more difficult to keep. But I think you are giving advice to the wrong crowd. A lot of men are fed up with the marriage laws in America and opting out of long-term relationships in general. I am sympathetic to this and try my hardest to not be what men complain about in women. But that only benefits my husband, which won’t change much of anything.

When will relations between men and women improve and genuine love and understanding happen? When people want it. Until then, you can’t force it on them. They have to seek it out themselves — and by seeking out a place like this, they are already walking a different path. You and I are on another road that may lead to a different ending, or may not. Time will tell.

@41 Anonymous

“I make more than $40,000 a month and I live in D.C. I don’t spend my money here. I travel and see other places and occasionally go out in other cities.

Speaking from experience, there is literally no point in going out in cities like D.C.”

- Where do you like to go?

@38 InterestedParty

“I don’t know anything about D.C. so I don’t know what “K Street” is, but I assume it’s the high rent district.”

K Street is a major thoroughfare in the United States capital of Washington, D.C. known for the numerous think tanks, lobbyists, and advocacy groups that exercise influence from its location. K Street is the home of the Associated Press Washington bureau and the AP Broadcast News Center, as well as al-Jazeera’s Washington bureau. The street inspired a television series on the HBO network by the same name, K Street.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_Street_(Washington,_D.C.)

@42 “Don’t act like he’s a scumbag because he’s in a place in his life where he’s not ready for a “committed” relationship or isn’t ready to invest resources for the possibility of sexual access ”

I never judged anyone to be a “scumbag.” I simply knew what I was looking for and recognized that a guy trying to take me home the same night he met me probably wasn’t looking for the same thing. So I let those guys move on to other women with more compatible desires. Perhaps I let go of a few who would have made good partners, but with so many guys who made it clear that they’d be interested in more of a relationship, I don’t feel it was much of a loss for me.

We all get to go out there wanting and seeking whatever we choose, no judgment on anyone. I’m simply suggesting that a lot of women who are the sweet and nurturing type are interested in men who want more than quick and casual sex with minimal effort. Being attentive, nurturing, loyal and kind to one man in particular definitely represents an investment of time, energy and resources. If a guy “isn’t ready to invest resources for the possibility of sexual access,” then why should a woman put in more effort than he is willing to, especially when he indicates that there’s little chance for the type of relationship she’s looking for? (And I’m talking a similar show of loyalty, kindness, and attention, not necessarily monetary resources).

@32 ?

“Why waste my time on someone who wasn’t interested in me personally or in putting any effort into a partnership?”

Don’t act like he’s a scumbag because he’s in a place in his life where he’s not ready for a “committed” relationship or isn’t ready to invest resources for the possibility of sexual access…or rather I should say you assume he doesn’t want this because you automatically disqualify him because he wants sex now and not later

If you disqualify guys who are “looking for quick sex with any available cute girl”, you may as well just stop dating or turn your energy towards “turning” gay guys.