If you only interact with women in the United States, particularly the big cities, it’s easy to conclude that most of them want an alpha male. They want an outspoken, masculine, and cocky peacock that treats them poorly and plays hard to get. They don’t want an agreeable nice guy who gives them compliments and shows eagerness in wanting to take them out. Only by displaying alpha traits did I get laid as I came of age in Washington DC. Before I started traveling in my late 20s, I didn’t even think that women of the world would want their men any other way.
My game softened while I was in South America, but not too much. While I could be more affectionate and caring, the women of Brazil, for example, loved men who pursued them aggressively. The women of Colombia, used to dating mini drug lords, wanted ambitious men who weren’t shy about displaying their means. They seemed to want a 33% beta and 66% alpha man, a mix that didn’t clash with my prior held beliefs. It’s only when I got to Europe that my alpha male model of seeing the world started to collapse.
In Iceland, I noticed that the women didn’t care if you were alpha, just that you were good-looking and had a private room. In Denmark, I had to become an silent uber beta just to get laid. The more beta I was, the more Danish girls I fucked.
In Poland, I killed it by being a horny beta male. While I did approach and wasn’t shy about escalating, I complimented Polish women freely. I bought them drinks and even the occasional dinner, treating them like a girlfriend even if they weren’t. I wasn’t cocky and rarely teased them. I didn’t do anything to manually build attraction. I was just my talkative self and they were fine with that. The more soft and Drake-like I was, the more I was rewarded with their attention and affections.
I want to give additional clarification of what I mean by “beta.” I wasn’t supplicant and I didn’t hold their purse while they went to the bathroom, but I wasn’t an asshole either. I wasn’t needy, I didn’t contact them often, I didn’t want to see them more than twice a week, and I didn’t buy them presents or flowers, but I didn’t play hard to get. I led the interaction, but I considered their suggestions and needs into account, such as asking them where they wanted to go or what type of food they wanted to eat. I did my best to increase their happiness, but I also expected something in return for what I gave them. I wouldn’t disagree with you if you said that my preceding definition of beta is “lesser alpha,” but for the sake of contrast lets call it beta.
There was no thought in my head that said to run alpha game on Polish girls, simply because they were so sweet and compliant. It wouldn’t have made sense. They showed up on time for dates, didn’t play games, didn’t argue with me just for the sake of arguing, didn’t stare at their phones every five minutes, and didn’t try to make me jealous by flirting with other men. Even in long-term relationships it doesn’t appear you need to run “relationship game” to keep their attraction level high. It’s true that I did use game to get the bang, but it was soft compared to what I run on American women.
The alpha model that you know well, that you use to bang American girls, is a temporary aberration in male-female dynamics, a preference that arises when a culture becomes sick and the functioning of normal relationships—and therefore society—breaks down. Alpha preference is not universal and not the way things have always been (all those studies done today that suggest the preference are being done on American and British women, not Polish or Estonian). While your father may be an alpha, he has no clue what alpha means, because there was no need in his time to actively become anything but a provider. If you think back to the times when women wanted ultra alphas, it was only when life was brutally short and resources scarce, but as long as there were stable tribes, beta providers were preferred. Providing was alpha.
As much as I want to blame feminism for causing women to have a predominant alpha preference, the women of Scandinavia are hopelessly drowning in feminist propaganda but do not prefer alpha males. Besides the occasional experimentation with a bad boy, they prefer subservient betas. A dominant alpha preference is present in only a handful of countries, most of them English-speaking. Even in South America, a place where alphas can do quite well, you’d be shocked at how many sniveling betas you see with beautiful young women.
I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that something is wrong with a culture if the women explicitly prefer alpha males. It makes illogical sense from a biological and humanitarian standpoint that a woman would go after men who will not provide or take care of them. Consider that women in America are mindlessly rushing to be used as cum buckets, which is being further encouraged by the media and Hollywood that makes fun of beta men for being boring, dopey, or unromantic.
To find out if a mating behavior is wrong or not, just use the sister test. Would you want your sister riding the carousel? Would you want her being subjected to what you do to bang American women? Or would you want her playing hard to get in order to find a good man who wants to take care of her forever? A society is healthy if the way you want your sister treated is the normal and prevalent behavior. This is the case in Scandinavia, Poland, and the Baltics, but we don’t have that in America, a place where women openly despise and mock nice guys. The irony is that my sister knows I treat American girls like disposable razors while at the same time understanding that I must do so in order to get laid, as if I have no other choice.
The broken American system has given rise to sexual jackals like myself who take advantage of the current environment, but understand that a broken culture is not needed to have an exciting sex life. My time in Poland was sexually just as fun, only less porn-like. My mood was more balanced, my interactions with women were more pleasant, and my overall stress level was low. It now seems almost perverse to me that I had to act hard and hyper-masculine to fuck girls, that I had to be a caricature of an action movie character instead of simply being positive, easy-going, and engaging. But that’s the American culture we have today. If you live in the United States, learn to be ridiculously alpha or move somewhere else.Tweet Follow @rooshv
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Logically, it’s unclear why you had to leave the US to figure this out. If you ever met one girl in the States who didn’t prefer an alpha male, then reason dictates that you should have concluded that not all girls would want an alpha. So unless you never met one girl who wanted a beta, you should have figured this out a long time ago.
At last!! This post I get! Of course there’s girls who prefer that!!
Ukraine – Alpha
I remember reading a thread on the forums where guys were saying that providing for a woman was considered “beta”. That’s when I knew the whole alpha/beta argument was becoming nonsense.
What about girls in Bogota? I don’t think they’re used to dating ‘mini drug lords’ like the girls from Medellin.
The girls I know like to date guys who invite them to dates, buy them stuff and have long conversations with them. The guys here are Beta, and the girls seem to like that but that doesn’t mean Im gonna turn into one.
Roosh, what do you reccomend to do with girls from Bogota?
Alpha and beta are contextual. To a polish girl a provider is alpha, to a Brit/American, an asshole is.
There is a common theme though:
I bet the women in both “broken” and “unbroken” cultures found you exciting.
Alphaness distilled is merely the ability to excite women. Western women just get bored more easily.
There’s 3 methods of interacting with women:
1. Pull — this is the beta “chicken” tactic to try to grab the woman’s interest. It fails, unless you want to be a beta provider.
2. Push — this is the alpha “vulture” tactic that is used to let the woman check herself as to why you’re not interested, which usually ends up cranking the hamster wheel 500% faster. Good for one night stands.
3. Push-pull — this is the alpha “hawk” tactic that is used to keep the challenge up. Random acts of planned betaness is a must, but it works best for long term commitments where the woman will happily do your laundry, cook for you, rub your back, and give you sex on demand.
Roosh , interesting that you mentioned Brazil , what you said is spot on , I always find the alpha male behaviour to be the gold standard to pick up hot chicks here.Possibly it is softer than the US standard , but its not Poland for sure.
I see the growing influence of American culture in Bogotan girls, specially in the ones who have lived in the USA, UK and Canada: The Uptown girls, the “gomelas”…
These girls say they have to play hard to get, they don’t return your calls, they’re flakey, not reliable and they’re bitchy and overconfident, they see the submision to a man as a bad thing, as something from the patriarchy and machismo.
But sometimes I find the girls Roosh is longing for, but they’re the poor ones who come out of the slumps from the poor parts of the country.
this post marks a good transition. I myself have struggled with this topic when trying to caliber behavior and alphaness in countries. It is always annoying to me how to nordic women any action I make is perceived as cocky unless it is completely some boring nonsense. My experience in both poland and colombia was similar. More dating and being a interesting guy game. No need to act like an asshole, just a guy who can take the lead. But there also lies the rub-you have to put in the time usually. Esp. in Latin America, the flakiness factor is huge.
Here in Mexico at the moment, it is taking awhile to transition back to this dating, putting in facetime game vs alpha dominant posture. But looking back, I can see how trying to make a more dominant outgoing game work everywhere was also short sighted.
Thanks for the reminder.
I’d lived in most of Western Europe before moving to the U.S. At the time I didn’t think ‘game’ and trying to get laid. Pre-U.S., all that just kind of existed in a balance with everything else.
Living in the U.S. changed my perspectives. Since I wasn’t trying to get a new chick every week, I didn’t analyze what was happening. In hindsight though, I was getting angry and jaded, and depressed – without realizing why.
It wasn’t till I dated some real depraved manipulative whores that I discovered the U.S. concepts of manosphere and game. After that, things improved a lot – and by improved I mean that I insulated my own state from female surroundings.
Once I left the U.S. I realized that what I’d been doing there isn’t necessary in much of Europe. It did help my understanding of pair bonding dynamics, and I can definitely get a lot more pussy on demand, knowing what I’d learned in the U.S.
Similarly in Asia, the whole ‘alpha’ thing isn’t equally necessary. Speaking the language, understanding the culture, and always being in pursuit helps a lot.
America is fucked up. Either you end up being the bitch to society at large and women in particular, or you turn into a calloused asshole.
A lot of that has to do with status obsession and materialism that runs rampant in American culture. Can’t speak for all of Europe, but at last in the parts I’ve been to good family, friends, food, wine, and the time to enjoy them were the main requisites for happiness. In the states there are no real solid requisites for happiness. People live to acquire shit, and attain higher status than the next guy. Broke people are miserable because they don’t have shit and society tells then they aren’t shit unless they do. People on top are miserable because they’ve neglected other things to make it to the top. People in the middle are unhappy because they’re trying to get to the top, and society tells them they’re losers for not making it. All this status obsession leads to a situation where everyone is asking themselves ”who am I better than?” This question is at the heart of what’s wrong with the states.
Hmph, living in Croatia I often think that our women are very Americanized and a sharp contrast to the women of Poland or even Scandinavia. On the other hand, I haven’t ever been to USA so I can’t compare, but I have been to other English-speaking countries which, I’d imagine, come quite close to the level of decadence going on in USA.
Anyways… logical conclusion is that Polish girls are the best :D
So, is a provider an alpha or a beta? Scandinavian women don’t need a provider because the state takes care of her and her child. Yet they seem to prefer a provider to some extent. The U.S. has less safety nets, yet the women prefer a guy who pumps and dumps?
Either this provider/alpha dichotomy is false, or women everywhere live in utter confusion. I guess #6 is close to the truth.
Patriarchs are the true alphas.
Women in Europe still expects you to lead and be a provider. They want an Alpha they just want a nice one :)
I’m Scandinavian and have lived there for approximately 26 years. I disagree that the beta huys are more sought after than the alpha guys. Almost all my experience tells me otherwise.
Maybe when girls get to their late 20′s/30′s suddenly beta guys have it a lot easier. But all the way from kindergarten up to that point, no.
I should say I don’t regard being a provider to be beta. Actually, since there is no consensus on beta/alpha definitions it’s quite confusing to say that anyone of them works better in X country. It’s more important to discuss traits that girls look for in guys, and then each one of us can decide for he’s own if that is alpha or beta. As Roosh himself points out, when he says he had success in denmark as a beta, he still harboured a lot of alpha traits.
Being a strong guy, a leader, dominant, social status etc definately get you more girls in Scandinavia in my opinion. In my life I’ve seen a lot of assholes getting all the girls, while the nice guys always have struggled (of course there are always exceptions). Actually, I consider the saying “nice guys finish last and bad guys get the girls” to be one of the core truths in game. As a lot of game theorists have pointed out (including Roosh), the welfare state can be one of the reasons for this: as girls in Scandinavia don’t need guys to provide the necessities.
Very interesting topic. I’m somewhat confused. We need to ponder this more in order to come up with a more universal game theory.
I definately agree that there is a much lesser need to be a bad guy in much of Latin America, where I have travelled. This is only necessary when dealing with the upper-middle-class and upper-class girls which have had a Western influence. With other girls, being a nice guy is better (to a certain point).
Neil Strauss said that we shouldn’t confuse nice with weak and bad with strong. Women want nice and strong guys, not bad and weak. (I disagree that this is true for Western countries.)
Palantir, you also have to factor in that about 50% of American women are fat, which inflates the value of the rest. US also have more and more safety nets now, although not as much as Scandinavia.
Sorry for my triple posts.
“Hell,” Dostoevsky wrote, “is the inability to love.”
hmm. interesting post mr roosh.
i like it.
you really seem to be your own man. some of the puas stay in a loop but i follow your blog and you’re an evolving piece of work, seemingly not afraid to question the pillars of your belief systems.
dare i say, you’re exactly like what einstein would’ve been today.
if he’d renounced kyke-ism and been born a muslim obsessed not with discovering the speed of light
…but the speed of panties dropping.
I think you were popular in Poland because the guys here are really pathetic… Everyone who had guts died in the war or emigrated under communism, and real men have gone extinct. Also, maybe women in America are so horrible because of the pill and high hormone levels in meat and dairy?
I love this post. Roosh, so you were nice to Polish girls, and you did bang them. Would you consider them whores/sluts/skanks/what have you or would you just call them “normal girls/women”? Also, this makes me wonder what kind of sex you consider porn-like. How are American women different in that regard?
Interesting insights, Roosh, but I think you aren’t taking a nuanced enough approach — not to the responsiveness of East European and Scandinavian women, but in the concepts of Alpha and Beta.
The terms have been used and misused by so many, and their meanings change based on the precise application you’re speaking of, that they start to fall apart when used in general theoretical discussions. However, I think the simplest way to break it down is to describe Alpha as behavior that inspires an oxytocin (excitement) response in women, while Beta is that which inspires a dopamine (comfort) response in women.
American women have out-sourced their comfort through a diverse network of paid service providers — the lawn man, the handyman, the pool man, and the Ben and Jerry’s scooper. They’ve used their impressive earning power to provide all the comfort that was traditionally provided by a husband, and then supplemented their emotional needs with pets or romance novels or stuff told from the vampire’s point of view. They don’t need comfort, so they despise Betas even as they use them like rental cars. They crave Excitement (oxytocin), which Alpha behavior inspires. Hence the carousel, the loathing of Betas, etc. They’re jaded. They’ve been told that adult womanhood is filled with excitement, and when they don’t get it (good and hard and regular) they move on to the next novelty cock.
Women of Eastern Europe (I’m guessing) have less personal security and therefore less need of excitement and more need of comfort and protection (dopamine). They don’t have the same over-inflated sense of entitlement their American peers do, and they’re far more aware of how fleeting their youth is. An American is already exciting (novel) enough to get their oxytocin going, so by following up with a little beta-inspired dopamine is going to make them happier.
The Scandinavian women . . . personally, I think that Scandinavia in general is headed for a big cultural retrenchment in the wake of the European financial meltdown. They’ve been at the top of the cultural food chain since WWII and they’ve gotten jaded by their cushy life. They have government-provided dopamine from the social security programs the Scandi countries are so famous for, and a general scorn about “Alpha Men” due to their role in the economic melt-down.
Instead of looking at the women in the Scandi countries, look at the men. They used to be Vikings, the most fearless and feared pirates and raiders and conquerors in the world. Then they were the bravest sailors in the world. What do they look like now? That’s the more interesting question.
I can’t see American women’s reactions as “sick” necessarily, unless you firmly adopt the relationship ideals of agricultural civilization. For post-industrial folks, they’re just doing what the economy and culture dictates. But the interesting thing about them is that they are ephemeral elements of a culture in transition: feminists and corporate wom-bots are not reproducing.
The two-parent cooperative family model is clearly superior for raising children successfully, in terms of concentration of resources and childhood enrichment. Considering how many resources each succeeding divorce takes away from the children involved, hypergamy is handicapping the poor kids from those broken homes or single-mom homes while kids from two-parent homes are doing better socially and academically. Within another generation or so, as the post-industrial economy sets into our culture in earnest and new advances in reproductive technology change the game yet further, I think we’ll see lower birth rates, less divorce, and fewer but more long-lived marriages.
Of course a lot of this will depend on collective manhood’s ability to transition from Single Game to Married Game, but I have great faith in y’all. In the mean time, keep up the good work.
I love these posts that are more philosophical. I am a beta type by nature, but that is so despised and discarded in the current culture that I am not able to just be myself. I have to use shields/walls to avoid being taken advantage of.
I like the sister test – it automatically clicks and I understood it without having to give it much thought at all.
“My mood was more balanced, my interactions with women were more pleasant, and my overall stress level was low.”
This looks like the key sentence, the less drama the better for everyone.
Do you think you’d have a hard time getting your game back to an optimal level if you were dropped in Washington, DC tomorrow? Like you, I’m not naturally a cocky asshole so it takes a certain amount of focus for me to turn up the Alpha enough to attract girls in the States. If I haven’t been out to an American bar in a while it takes me some time to sharpen the game knife and readjust to our peculiar species of girl.
Solo, we have almost similar “50% fat women” situation here in Finland. Consequently, the top 10% of the women know their value. Yet even the fatties can have totally unrealistic expectations, so I guess they get male attention from somewhere.
I guess alpha/beta varies by culture. Here in the North one can at times behave cockily, but only if it is mixed with humor. Otherwise one just gets branded as a bigmouth; a guy who has big words, but nothing real to show. As a result, some Southern European “alpha” cultures don’t get much respect. Guys from those countries could still succeed with somewhat exotic looks and an outgoing nature.
Good post. I’d even go as far as to say that the different scenes in the US call for the kind of calibration you describe.
You’d still have to run game, but the stereotypical “action-hero” alpha doesn’t appeal to all girls. In fact, to some girls, it’s a DLV for precisely the reasons you describe; it can make you look like you come from a low-class background.
I would say that you need to be alfa even in Baltics and Poland. Just what is considered alfa here is probably beta in states. The shift from alfa to beta is gradual not sharp. But alfa game helps me as a native Eastern-european, because I am more alfa by local standards. In USA I would probably be a beta, it seems dating is like a war there.
Interesting commentary, Roosh. Ironwood’s rejoinder was well-thought out as well.
I’ve been considering these ideas for a long time, and have come to a similar understanding.
One interesting concept that’s helped me to understand the current anglosphere obsession with Alphaness as it relates to competition versus co-operation. The alpha craving seems to be directly correlated to a society’s level of resource competition and ethics thereof, and inversely related to cooperation.
In a competitive society, alpha screams good provider. He’s the winner, and winner take all.
In a more co-operative society, beta tendencies show a greater ability to work with people, make friends, and grow influence. In that cultural mileiu, beta tendencies are more culturally cohesive and enjoy greater cross-linking and its attendant provider benefits.
Interesting post, but I’d challenge your premise. Asshole does not equal “alpha”. That’s why I hate the whole alpha/beta bullshit… everybody has their own interpretation for what it means. Therefore, it means nothing.
You can be a real man (which is what I assume an alpha is… but who the fuck knows) and still buy a drink. And you can do half of the other shit dudes think is off limits in the US. I really don’t know where some of these “game” beliefs come from.
there isnoooothing wrong with amrikkka-it is the bestest except for femi-freindly Sweden….
donchya knoe teh wommenz will spend their best years getting high quality alpha cock…then when they are in their thirties, the nerds whom they wouldn’t give the time of day will be ready to take care of them. You know, those incel™ loser will finally be happy to get some affetion they won’t question a thing….
Feminism has soicially engineered a utopia…..
Please do a game Utah! Or Nebraska! Or Alabama! Some place in the US with decent women!
Game for a lack of a better word, is simply the term used to refer to principles to live by when dealing with women. Since many people differ in principles regardless of culture, it’s only logical that people will differ in there approach to game.
That being said, when Americans equate assholes with being alpha, asshole really stands for putting your happiness, comfort and satisfaction ahead of the happiness, comfort and satisfaction of the women you’re dealing with. That is the only practical way of being an alpha male in America…there is no compromise, contrary to feminists and other indoctrinated women who preach the merits of a 50/50 relationship.
In other countries where women aren’t raised to despise any semblance of male authority, wisdom and integrity – one doesn’t need to be an “asshole” because the women expect a man to put his interest first. However, in all other nations where feminist principles influence culture, men are expected to sacrifice their own existence for the existence of women, and any man who wishes to maintain his dignity and self-respect has to be an asshole if he wants p*ssy.
Maybe the definition of alpha/beta is relative to the culture. Maybe an american-beta is a Danish-alpha and an american-alpha is too much.
As the ancient Greeks said: “Moderation in all things”
Also, maybe you developed and gained true inner-confidence in all your travels. Women can find this very attractive even if you give beta-like mannerisms.
“aberrration” of sick societies..:well put. Presumption
of deception underneath that.
” I had to be a caricature of an action movie character ”
Appalling and true.
However “playing hard to get” implies the delayed text responses , deceptive fake “business” and more of the same we have now.
causing women to have a predominate alpha preference,
causing women to have a PREDOMINANT alpha preference,
Broke people are miserable because they don’t have shit and society tells then they aren’t shit unless they do. People on top are miserable because they’ve neglected other things to make it to the top. People in the middle are unhappy because they’re trying to get to the top, and society tells them they’re losers for not making it.”
Whoa!!! Brilliant, brilliant, BRILLIANT summation of a “climber” society. What a sad waste of all that Murkan efficiency!
I think the BIG take-away from this post should be that Alpha and Beta are culturally relative.
All hail the Roosh. This is a great set of observations man. I’ve been seeing a Chinese girl and she’s like the Polish girls you describe. It’s a completely different (and in my experience better) world of male/female interactions. There are no universals when it comes to what women want. Culture can shape women (and men for that matter) into just about anything, it seems.
Something indeed is rotten in the state of (insert country here, let’s start with the good ole U.S.A.)
The flip side of the coin is that a lot of men in the U.S. prefer masculine women. They want women who can just be “one of the guys.” A woman they can call, “dude.” (This makes me shudder.)I think these desires feed on each other.
For those of us who have eloped to search for a different way with different types of women, it becomes all the more obvious when you see it.
Let men be men, and women be women.
How much experience do you have with America outside DC? because I know for a fact that there is a big difference between Toronto and Western Canada. In Western Canada, men are more manly (more cowboys, bikers, etc) and women are less … well, less like the Danish women you describe.
Well done. This is one of my favorite articles you have ever written – what always held me up about the American “alpha” is the sister test. I have a sister, and a mother, and I would want them to be treated respectfully. I have always had a hang up with treating women like an asshole for this reason.
I am a nice guy and I think I would really enjoy my time in Poland – I need to make that happen. I think my normal American self would do pretty well there considering what you have described.
For analysis, I think (r)Evoluzione probably hit the nail on the head.
“Instead of looking at the women in the Scandi countries, look at the men. They used to be Vikings, the most fearless and feared pirates and raiders and conquerors in the world. Then they were the bravest sailors in the world. What do they look like now? That’s the more interesting question.”
The American concept of alpha-male is “Black Masculinity” White Americans are programmed to worship Black Masculinity: sports, and rap.
But there was a time when “Alpha” Masculinity was defined as intelligence. The Vikings were 6’0 tall guys yes….but they did not run around randomly swinging clubs—if they did they would not have built a successful society. They Built Things, Invented Things, Invented Weapons, Planned Attacks…They Were Smart. They ruled the world not because of “African” raw physical masculinity, but because of a combination of Physical + Sherlock Holmesian Masculinity. Sherlock Holmes is incredibly alpha.
This also may explain why White American women want jerks. It goes back to the cult of worshiping the Non-White African Male that our media has fed us since childhood…the idea that ultimate Masculinity is Defined by P-Diddy, 50 Cent, and Reggie Bush.
European women haven’t been black-washed by the media as long as American women have.
That would explain the differences you are seeing.
roosh any plans for india ……u dont knw but there is a good following of your here too …who just go thru the forum threads to read pathetic state they are living reg. getting laid……………:discussionclosed:
“Game for a lack of a better word, is simply the term used to refer to principles to live by when dealing with women.”
Actually, I’d say rather that Game is the purposeful utilization of existing subtextual cues to female sexual arousal to mimic the state inspired by an Alpha presentation, thus claiming the benefits of Alpha without necessarily incurring the penalties of actually being an Alpha.
But I’m open to refinement on this.
Your thinly veiled racism is laughable. Europeans have long been more receptive to black American culture than Americans. Why do you think so many black Americans went to Paris in the mid 20th century? Why do Europeans appreciate jazz and blues more than white Americans? Black Americans get more love in Europe than they do stateside. It sounds like you’re butt-hurt because some black guy got a girl you liked. Race trolls are not appreciated.
BUT I digress. I loved this post. Ian Ironwood and (r)Evolutionize make some excellent points. I think that what’s considered “alpha” and “beta” do change across culture for a number of reasons. And I think one of the biggest factors is what’s valued in a culture. French culture tends to value intelligence, good taste, being well-read, artistic prowess, etc. so a man who’s dominant in that framework is going to be alpha. In a country like the U.S. where tabloid journalism, Jersey Shore and being in a band are highly valued, men who are dominant within that framework are going to be the “alphas.” A French guy with a sweater draped over his shoulders is top-dog in a place like Paris whereas he’d be looked at as a pussy in many places in U.S. (“exotic” appeal aside.)
This is why I agree with Roosh that our society is sick. It’s because our values are fucked up. We have a corrupted version of capitalism and a consumerist culture that deeply impacts the way people behave and what they value. Everything is on steroids: monster trucks, hormone-injected meat and women who want an “action star.”
I would even suggest that the idea of alpha varies regionally in the U.S. and breaks down along cultural lines. IN NYC alpha = wealth; in DC alpha = power; in LA alpha = “cool.” More or less.
I think that countries outside the Anglosphere value different traits in their “alpha” men because their societies value different things out of life. The points made by other commenters about communal / competitive impulses comes to mind.
In Eastern Europe, true wit, kindness, intelligence, inner strength and the things that make us human are seen as a positive, not something to to be squashed. (Of course wealth, good-looks, etc are also good!) At the end of the day, they want a man they can admire as a person, not someone who is there purely for entertainment purposes.
I hope they don’t catch up to us anytime soon.
Great post, music in general is valued much higher in Europe than in the states. I loved your breakdown of Alpha in regions.
Excellent post Roosh, ever since I became bilingual I’ve often wondered why situations were always more tense/hostile when using English. Artists simply aren’t valued in American culture until they’re dead and someone can reap the profits through benefits/museum galas etc. things that don’t really serve the initial intent of the artist. At the end of the day you can either say it’s fucked up or leave…I think that i’m leaning towards the latter.
Given how dogmatic ROISSY is about every woman wanting ALPHA males because of genetics…and social condition is bullshit/feminist argument…I wonder about his take on your FIELD EXPERIENCE.
Traveling is educational.
where is Argentina on this spectrum?
I think there are women that are like that in the USA, I’ve met a few through online dating. But they don’t go to bars, clubs and so on, and PUAs love to focus mainly on bar/club/late night game. They are definitely rare-er
German bloke here who immigrated to the U.S. in the 1990s. Absolutely SPOT ON mate and I second your analysis. When I made the big move I had to COMPLETELY change my game and it took me a few years to catch on. Back in Germany I was getting more pussy than a toilet seat being broke, driving an old 1974 Beemer, and having a shitty little apartment next to the railroad station.
All that changed when I moved over here. The first chick I chatted up in a grocery store told me straight forward that she thought I was a ‘nice guy’ but that she wanted someone ‘more established’ – meaning someone with money and a career. I was young then and did not have a stable job and very little money. That is something I had NEVER come across in Germany – not once.
Over time I learned my lessons and about a decade later all the things I had learned were confirmed by Tom Leykis who ran a pretty cool talk radio show over here in L.A.
Being a ‘nice guy’ is not a problem in Europe – and having intelligence actually is a bonus, not a liability – European women do not like meatheads. How you dress is more important than what you drive – a bit of style goes a LOOONG way.
Anyway, just some front reports from an old player ;-)
From my experiences I believe that Australian girls are 50/50! You will have to come to the land down under and see for your self!
A stellar post Roosh,
I’ve never subscribed to the Alpha/Beta framework, because technically it is a heirachy. Put a bunch of Alphas from various isolated locations together, then some will assume Alpha amongst Alphas, and some previous Alpha’s will fall to the bottom of the heirachy, beta.
To put into conext, that’d be like a bunch of Australians (I just use that example from your past posts) with tight game invading Poznan when you were there. By the Alpha/Beta dichotomy, you’d be relegated to chastity, and I don’t think that would happen.
That is why I much prefer Rollo Tomasi’s “Positive Masculinity” which is about self improvement, part of which is igniting female attraction triggers.
That would be consistent with what I hypothesised about Poznan. A strong, interesting male in an enviroment where there is a good cross-gender dynamic.
I can not express the appreciation of this post, and IMO this could be the beginning fo your star ascending.
‘Game’ has not moved on much beyond Mystery and Neil Strauss with a focus on gimmicks to assert relative value. This post shows a wider scope for the esteem both genders are held in and how this effects the relationship dynamic. Your insights
are becoming both unique and of greater depth.
The West is toxic, Poland was not.
Once again, well done.
Nice Post! Finally someone takes their head out the metaphoric sweaty ass that is the US and SEES the truth!
Fact is, Alpha/Beta males are just another artificial construct of the culture we live in. No such thing as a ALPHA male! Just behavior that conforms to cultural norms force-feed by the media-influenced culture.
Woman in other countries DEFINE what they want in a man. In America, the media/culture/woman DEFINE how a man should act. Understand the difference!
Want more proof! Ask your grandmother or an older (70-80) year old woman what SHE found attractive in a man back in “her day!”
I don’t think you will find the pathetically sad “cocky/funny” douche bag persona made the cut back then.
SURE you can make the argument that, back then, woman had to rely on men to provide for them more, BUT do you really think woman, even today, aren’t just doing the ole “rinse and repeat” as well on the superior “Alpha male?”
Unless. of course, he is wealthy. THEN she plays her little “beta” female character UNTIL she has his ring and his children. Interesting how quickly the Alpha becomes a Beta, huh?
Men in this country invent so many little “facades” and “persona” in order to win validation from other people’s “facades” and “persona.” Few seem to have the inner strength or courage to just be themselves and live lives in accordance with their own values and judgement.
You can only play at being a fictional character for so long, though some men “play” their entire lives, until something happens that causes mortality to stare you in the face! That is when the “Alpha male” persona etc….dissolves into tiny little pieces…….
TOO BAD THOUGH! Often there won’t be anyone left to care! BUT HEY! You sure did get a lot of “pussy!”
I’d also like to ask the same what Glee manifesto is asking: where does argentina in this spectrum? Your posts about that country suggests that you really had it rough. You mention techniques but then turn around and say that their women behave in a way that game theory has no answer to. So which is it?
“That is why I much prefer Rollo Tomasi’s “Positive Masculinity” which is about self improvement, part of which is igniting female attraction triggers.”
I would have to agree with you there, T&A Man. Most people would rank me a 7 in the looks department but I never had any trouble attracting women far beyond my ‘level’. Frankly I never even bothered with average looking girls. Most women I dated told me that I had a certain ‘intensity’ about me and that’s what had attracted them to me in the first place. If you work on yourself it will transcend into your aura and your actions – you don’t have to really advertise the fact IYWKIM.
As the old saying goes: Be desireless, be excellent, be gone. My favorite Tao ;-)
Roosh: ” A dominant alpha preference is present in only a handful of countries, most of them English-speaking. Even in South America, a place where alphas can do quite well, you’d be shocked at how many sniveling betas you see with beautiful young women.”
But do you know for a fact these sniveling betas are in fact fucking these beautiful young women? Just because you see a guy walking down the street with a super hottie does not mean he’s sticking his cock in her. Unless you have a confirmation of the actual relationship of two people in question, for all we know the beta guy is simply playing the role of useful-idiot-eunich-friend while she saves herself and spreads her legs for some Mr Danger Asshole Narco who beats her half to death while he fucks her.
A while back Roissy had a post about a Mexican beauty queen who was busted with her drug dealing boyfriend. Did you not also chime in on that thread? And of course beauty queens in SA have choices of what kind of men they want to hang out with. She was also not an isolated case in South America.
That’s maybe your best text, Roosh. Mature, clever, deeply rooted on reality. Hope to publish you here in Brazil. All the best,
Well, there are other cities in the US with a pretty different culture from the rest of the country.
@ 31 (r)Evoluzione
I think he nailed it.
@ 43 AFemaleCat
Might also be right. The problem however is not with blacks who should live as they like, but with SWPL people who worship them and have no pride about being white, but have this wierd american guilt about their ancestors being slave-owners. Europeans don’t have this guilt so altrough some of us do enjoy aspects of black culture like jazz, we don’t actually consider blacks to be that great at all. More women would find them to be exotic here, but also more women wouldn’t even consider them out of pride of their white race and they wouldn’t feel even remotely guilty about being racist by American standards.
In my experience, Game has only developed in order to battle against feminism. The more masculine and feminist a girl is that im talking to, the more i have to use.
It’s a mechanism to exercise control and dominance over a a dominant and controlling female. It’s a battle of wills – Who controls the frame of the interaction… The person with the strongest frame, wins.
It sucks that we have to learn it and why it seems unnatural because that’s the point. It is. Its not inherent in us to game women or to fight for dominance.
In an ideal world, or a world that has existed for centuries until now. The mail/female polarity was clear between the sexes and companionship was straightforward.
Its a shame the world is the way it is. And its up to us to fix it. One man at a time.
@16 & 17,
I think you’re on to something. Scandinavian women want an Alpha, but not an asshole.
I’m curious about what the epitomy of an Alpha is, though – no, I haven’t read the game yet. Likely I will at some point, but until then;
Does an alpha only pump and dump? Will he only be an asshole, clearly radiating that to women? Cause that’s what it sounds like in this entry by Roosh.
In my un-gamey mind, an Alpha can def be a decent guy, he just doesn’t stand down for anything or anyone, and he doesn’t do needy at all. … Am I way off?
And i have to agree with Roosh on a lot of levels when it comes to Polish girls. I’ve dated a few of them in London and the ones i did were fresh off the boat and gave me no grief whatsoever. Can’t say a single bad word about them. They’re the sweetest and nicest girls i’ve ever had the pleasure of meeting and it almost makes you guilty for wanting an open relationship with them.
If i ever lived in Poland, i honestly think id probably end up settling down before getting the chance to master game. You just don’t need it with Polish girls.
Yesterday aI was kinda shocked when I saw a Beta (4 to 5) with an incredible 8.5. The guy was constantly cuddling and complimenting her, it was kind of embarrassing to watch, and the girl looked even annoyed. However, later on she played the cuddle game. She was from EE, probably polish, check or something. First I thought: “what a waste!”, but now I reflect on it and think it is better this way than the other way round (as Roosh also twittered a few days ago after observing a similar case). Now I feel empowered to bang a similar 8, cause I actually learned something from this guy with ZERO game. In the end, it reminded me to go back to Poland ASAP!
Well boys, it is all a matter of attraction. Happily we are attracted to different kind of people. Otherwise there wouldn’t be enough people to populate the earth. For myself I can only say that bright men, intelligent men are a real turn on for me. Looks doesn’t matter that much. Harmony on the other hand is a must. Tall and dark, slight and blond, what do I care? But his brain, WOW, this is where it all happens. I am of Viking breed, and they made strong women as well as strong men. We actually don’t need men to provide for us, but the company of an intelligent, bright man, who knows his way around, is always nice. When the Vikings set to sea either to conquer the world or to trade, they were often gone for months, sometimes even for years. They left their businesses and complete household in the hands of their wives, knowing that they would take care of everything. And they did, very well indeed.
So we, daughters of the Vikings, carry independence in our blood. We are born with it. And you can’t just take it away from us. Yes, it has been nursed by a feministic movement, but we have had it for hundreds of generations before the movement even was born.
Another indication about how alpha-ness may not be all that great is how much nicer everyone is in posts like this one compared to the ultra-mean “alpha” ones where mostly angry guys respond to, perpetuating the anger. Nicer “beta” posts (seem to me to) attract more girls.
And also, being SMART is more important than being alpha/beta, mean/nice, whatever.
After searching for an hour and not finding the answer I hope someone here will help me.
In one of his blog Roosh mentioned a fashion blog on the lines of ‘masculine men’ or something I’ve googled and searched this blog and forum but can’t seem to find that blog. Its a classy layout blog that talks about suites and shirts etc.
Any link/pointers. Thanks in advance
It’s lame how I can help you (to my defense, I’m unemployed):
Thanks Theodor(a)? :)
@24 – Ian
You break it down perfectly: rather than talk in terms of Alpha and Beta social hierarchy, just say women crave both excitement and comfort. And depending on the woman and the situation, they need more of one or the other. And not every woman gets equally excited about the same things, thus the confusion about “what’s Alpha in my neighborhood?” The alpha-beta pecking order business is real, but it’s at one remove from female attraction, because it represents, stands in for, indicates the things that attract: strength, sway, mastery on the one hand or kindness, thoughtfulness, conscientiousness on the other.
(By the way, your oxytocin and dopamine examples are backward!)
This may be my favorite Roosh post, besides the Compliment & Cuddle treatise.
It’s the classic chicken or the egg argument.
Which came first….SWPL whites or television?
Television/Theatre have been working on these whites minds for 100 years.
That explains why the upperclass got SWPL-ized first- because they were surrounded by said “culture makers” who guilt-tripped them into submission. (You know the white Anglo Saxon protestants that got dressed up to to go plays before tv’s were in everyone house…I should look at old plays and find guilt-inducement, and then they talked about said plays endlessly at tea time)
Europe partially escaped this because of their media decentralization (Thank Goodness for Different Languages) which leads to more freedom of thought.
The Jazz argument is just fascinating…I think it was Henry Ford who wrote some good things on Jazz….Henry Ford on Jazz….I’m sure a google search would prove to be very enlightening
I live in a Southern Europe country, and it is common knowledge here that “women love bad boys”.
Roissy has the biggest rationalization hamster ever. The irony of it is not lost on me. So yeah, he will probably come up with some sort of explanation. And then he’ll find “evidence” on how “science” agrees with him, and feel completely justified, while the reality will simply go on without him.
@71 My bad!
Would you agree a crisis fires a return to the Alpha provider? (“as long as there were stable tribes, beta providers were preferred”)
Unstable times…sounds familiar to us.
It’s honestly a lot easier to have reasoned debate if definitions aren’t constantly changing.
Per Roissy, and it seems his definition is widely accepted, alpha is defined to be those that attracts and lays women. Therefore, saying there are places where women don’t prefer alpha, is nonsensical.
What specific traits add up to alpha is nowhere set in stone, though. In DC, and the Anglo countries in general, from where both you and Roissy hail, it basically boils down to being an asshole and a social butterfly. Cocky-funny, self obsessed, narcissistic etc. But nowhere is it written in stone that that has to be universal.
Truth to be told, historically and in less degenerate cultures, “walking softly and carrying a big stick” have been the hallmarks of alpha, while self promotion and cockiness have been the hallmarks of the insecure, socially ambitious ghetto cat. The post above about how in America, ghetto (in it’s black incarnation) culture has influenced what is seen as alpha, is probably more true than many feel comfortable admitting. Just like someone truly secure in his position has little need for beating up on children and the elderly, neither does he get anything from being an asshole towards others. Instead, just like the Kiplings “superior” Englishmen of the white man’s burden era, he would make some effort at lowering himself to the level of the common herd. You see the same even today, with uber alphas like movie stars (I’m in LA, bear with me) striving to be seen as “just a regular guy.” While the no-credit, c-listers being the ones name dropping and playing up their meager associations with “the industry.”
What stands out in America as of now, and particularly in DC and other SWPL-villes, is how high social ranking is predominantly awarded non-productive leeches. Europe might in some instances have a “stronger safety net”, ladder climbing within European social services hierarchies is not the way to attain status over there. In America, the semi private, semi public redistributors, lawyers, lobbyists and financiers, are pretty much at the top of social hierarchies. These are largely fields where participants are rewarded for being definitionally assholes, guys who take stuff from others without compensation. And the bigger assholes they are, the more they take, and the more revered they get. This is reflected across the culture. Just look at Hollywood, where scumbag lawyers suing people for all manners of trumped up so called evils, are hailed as someone useful for more than target practice.
Being reared in environments like this, girls naturally responds by thinking these are the guys to look up to.
Another thing is, the same legalistic, redistributive culture provides cover for assholeness. If you are an asshole in a genuinely free society, you just get beaten to death or murdered, with no consequence to the beater/murderer. Problem solved. While in America, the asshole can, and does, almost inevitably hide behind he threat of lawsuits and prosecutions. So, in essence, one group of assholes are looking out for another.
I’d also like to note Scandinavia is a bit of an outlier. The dominant culture in the West, shaped as it is by liberal Americans in LA, DC and NYC, have elevated Scandinavia to some sort of wonderland. Which they are able to get away with, since Scandinavia is a small and insignificant enough place so that few actually speak out against the silliness. And of course the Scandinavians are no less happy to play the role of top dog in this hierarchy than they were in the German originated hierarchy of the early 40s. So, watching some dark, hairy foreigner trying to show off how cocky he is, is to a raised-from-birth-to-think-she-is-superior Danish chick little different than how she would respond to a fat, bald and old guy “showing off” in a Corvette. Simple chest thumping by a lower primate, in other words. France is in a somewhat similar situation, as the same liberal Americans have raised the rest of the world to believe there is some inherent “sophistication” in simply being French.
Couldn’t agree more.
Have been in Europe for a while now and when I arrived I immediately noticed my adopted behaviour from a life growing up in North America was not going to fly here. I had to adapt and take a softer stance…I could be more myself instead of playing the games that I was used to. It was a weird experience. However, it was a positive experience and I view women in a more positive light than I did back home. Much more positive.
Even observing men with women when I came over here made this evident. I would see guys showing public displays of affection in ways that would make me cringe. The odd thing was, these girls seem to love it. This goes for a lot, not all, of English women as well. Let’s not be ridiculous though as the English women stick out as being worse than the their European counterparts. However, not nearly as bad as back home. In Europe they actually want to be treated like women and they want secure men who aren’t trying to be some hollywood figure.
It’s a common thing for guys here to take girls they barely know on dinner dates. Since I’ve been here I’ve not once had a girl show up late, except for one occasion with a bratty Canadian girl. The only ones who you shouldn’t do this with are those that give off signs of being a gold digger or someone from North America.
One of the first clear signs to me regarding just how messed up North America is came when I was on a date with an older English woman. She asked me if the U.S. and Canada is fairly feminist? I asked her what she thought and her description hit the nail on the head. I couldn’t believe that in Europe, where they are more liberal, they would suggest such a thing without going into some kind of rabid feminist rant.
I never even get asked immediately what I do for work here unless it’s the gold digging type. You know right away as well because that is a very uncommon question to be asked within 1 minute of meeting someone over here, unlike in America. If they do ask it’s usually a shy girl who doesn’t know what to say….you can tell the difference.
Now I’ve been out with women from all over Europe since I’ve been here and it is very hard for me to even consider the thought of dating an American or Canadian. Perhaps it’s a good education for some of these North American women, as maybe some of them adapt themselves and forget about their man-hating ways. I’d be lying if I said I didn’t treat anyone form America with a bit more skepticism over here, but I think it’s fair to do so.
Whenever I go home I am guaranteed to see one girl on the plane wearing flip flops and yoga pants….I am quickly reminded of where I am headed. Man hell.
I went to the bar during the Superbowl halftime show and met 2 girls there. A daughter and mother. The mother, aged 50 or so, was really looking good and she gave me subtle hints about getting fucked. But I was too busy for that shit and didn’t care due to her age. Her daughter, on the other hand, was in a bitchy mode. They got shots and the daughter said:
“Here’s to the men we love, that don’t love us”
I giggled on my inside. The daughter hoped to look like Madonna by the time she hit the same age as her. But that was a far cry, since she was a pear-shaped below-average looker.
OK, ANYWAY, back on topic. I want to point out a thing about Polish people in general: They’re shy, reserved, but they DO respect people. And they’re generally nice at first. I know this, because I am 100% Polish myself and I still can’t manage to break loose of my beta upbringing and programming. It always shows itself when I can’t help but be nice to a girl. At first I could be a total jerk with my sarcastic humor, but as the interaction gets further, I start appreciating the girl more and then start showing my ‘nice guy’ side.
If I meet Asian women, I don’t have to do much work to keep their attraction up. They’re generally into nice, white nerdy nice guys.
But in a nutshell, American women do suck. I’ve experienced nothing but hardship with a few attractive girls I work with to no avail, unless I show my asshole, demanding side every so often. One of the girls tried taking my money out of my hand as a joke one time, so I elbowed her right tit. And yet she talked around with the workers, wondering what my middle name is.
So in conclusion, if I have to be an alpha just to attract a girl, she’s definitely worth a pump and dump and nothing more. I don’t respect her at the start, so why change that up after I plowed her?
Oh, and anytime I hit the bar and see a guy following a girl around, I bet the odds are against him in getting laid. Only if the girl decides to, which is a far cry.
“So in conclusion, if I have to be an alpha just to attract a girl, she’s definitely worth a pump and dump and nothing more. I don’t respect her at the start, so why change that up after I plowed her?”
That’s exactly it. Not a good foundation. The quicker more guys get this, the only way it has a hope in hell of ending in America. Sadly, it’s perhaps too late for that.
“..The alpha model that you know well, that you use to bang American girls, is a temporary aberration in male-female dynamics, a preference that arises when a culture becomes sick and the functioning of normal relationships—and therefore society—breaks down…”
Great quote. I think many of us probably underrate the importance of culture over alpha/beta when it comes to dealing with women.
Women are a lot easier to influence, ask anyone in advertising if you’re in doubt. They simply care more about fitting in and having the right opinions than men, a weaker frame to stay in game lingo. They are always focused on social dynamics and what the majority thinks is hot.
Tell women enough times that a real man is a thug with golden teeth (no racist) and they’ll believe it. Tell them that a they are strong and don’t need no man and they’ll believe it. Tell them that men with spiky hair and lipstick is hot (Japan) and they’ll believe it.
American womens lust for badboys and the Scandinavian desire for subservient men are probably symptoms of a fucked up culture and society. In America it’s this imhumane pursuit of money (as a means to status) because of corporatism (feminism is the same – just a marketing ploy to create more consumption), in Scandinavia it’s the extreme focus on security (or the nanny state wouldn’t be there) and selflessness (socialism/communism).
My one only experience with Polish women was a blissfull short affair. I couldn’t believe how mellow and happy I felt with this girl who gave no grief and was just all round pleasent.
However, the same is my experience in Asia, Thailand, Japan and mainland China. You don’t need ‘game’ as such just to be a hardworking, ambitious decent guy and that IS the norm and should be. This war of the sexes is one of the most tiring and stressful things in modern western life, fuck it! You shouldn’t need ‘game’ beyond being a principled, confident man to get with women.
Women in the west are being corrupted by different agendas imo, where a small elite whether bueracrats or wealthy are fucking over the population to retain their power base.
One of your best posts.
More alpha or beta behavior when dealing with a woman from a small town in Mexico?
awwww our little boy is finally becoming a man :’)
Keep the good post comming, Rooshy.
Brazilian girl love men who chase them and say compliments becacause they are usually treated like shit by Brazilian (cave)men. And worse: they arent really that much into sex, they just like to show off to their buddies.
I’m Brazilian and I’ve just came back from Argentina. I am just amazed: they are gentlemen but, at the same time, they chase you like hunters and they fuck like horses. And they are the most handsome men in the universe, along with the Italians.
Another Good one Roosh
Mariana, I’d like to hear your stories of fucking the supposedly god-like men of Argentina … However, my hunch is you’re actually an Argentine man doing some covert boasting for your category …
I’ve been to northern Europe a few times and noticed the exact same thing. To me it always seemed like the girls just didn’t know any better. An interesting thought experiment is to imagine what would women be like in a society that was 100% beta male? I suspect the answer is a lot like how the women are in north east Europe.
I just wish I was gay.
Damn. Good post.
What’s your phone number?
Not sure if trolling or
Recently you just threw alot of scorn on the danish women for having been corrupted by feminism and gender equality.
This i can to a certain degree understand, having had personal experience with Denmark.
But now you write this;
“A society is healthy if the way you want your sister treated is the normal and prevalent behavior. This is the case in Scandinavia, Poland, and the Baltics, but we don’t have that in America, a place where women openly despise and mock nice guys.”
Now you are saying that the induced beta male behaviour caused by feminism is a sign of societal health.
Its hard for me to acknowledge the consistency with these 2 statements.
Is feminism now considered a good thing?
oh, yes it is!!
Lol… No, I am actually a woman… Funny thing, I am a woman being accused of being a men pretening he is a woman…
you could have fooled me.
Cool … yeah, funny, but these things happen …
So … tell us some stories …
Yeah, I was wondering the same, so now Denmark is good? I’ve noticed that Roosh often has these kinds of contradicting posts. It’s always entertaining though…
I do agree with the premise though, it matches my experiences as well. I’m an Eastern European living in USA, and yes, the dating market is quite different. Although women in general are indeed of worse character in USA, the biggest culprit is (low) quality of American women look-wise. The sheer number of fatties drives the value of somewhat decent looking women through the roof. The Paradox of Choice is the result, where the hotties are so overloaded with options that they don’t know what to do and go with the “exciting” wrong choice. Rinse and repeat throughout her 20s and cry in her 30s that there are “no good men left”. To be fair, there are good women in USA as well, but most of them are unattractive or are happily married since early age. Part of Rooshes problem with US women is also selection bias – if you chase bar sluts that put out the same night, that is all you get.
In countries like Russia the situation is reversed – hotties are plentiful and decent men are scarce and valued. Women know the true value and make the better choice (if they can)
It really depends where you are in the U.S. too. In New England, you need to be a total alpha douche to get anywhere it seems. However in South Carolina, you’ll do well to be a decent guy with ambitions and morals. I think in many cases there is a correlation between religion and society. You can be nice and “normal” in places like South America and Eastern Europe (very Catholic) or in many Southern U.S. states (Christian in general), but once you get to the godless liberal Northeast, or the godless liberal Left Coast, or godless liberal UK, you’re going to have trouble. Evil societies kill themselves.
If we’re talking about Portenos the average guy probably seems like a gentleman at first glance, but under the surface is a scummy horn dog willing to do or say anything to get in a girl’s pants no matter how hideous she might be. He might be treating you like a princess, but he’s probably doing the same for 3 or 4 other sloots on the side all the while trying to bang his buddy’s girlfriend.
There are so many beautiful women in Buenos Aires that the men with options can’t muster up the self control to be faithful. There is also a pervasive subconscious mentality that the world is going to end tomorrow, so might as well bang that exotic fatty. It’s no surprise that Portenas are crazy, jaded and hate their lives by their mid to late twenties. They struggle desperately to get a decent guy to settle down.
The women have responded by being cold, elusive, and skeptical of men in general. The men will go after the most mediocre foreigners (who don’t get looked at twice in their homeland) because they have grown accustomed to the incredibly difficult women and are enthralled by how easy it is to get sex from a chubby foreigner with low self esteem. In a city this big there are naturally going to be some decent guys, but the gentleman act (as an insincere ploy to get laid) is part of almost every portenos repertoire.
Thanks for your reply.
“Yeah, I was wondering the same, so now Denmark is good?”
I hardly think so. His ego took a huge dent in that country, so i cant imagine that anything will change his mind.
My impression is that he in general does not like north european culture, and especially scandinavian culture. Furthermore he was under nourished sex wise, for the 2 months he stayed there.
But it seems to me that the worst part for him was that he was reduced in social status. His american “game” was useless, and nobody would give a fuck about his accomplishments. Something similar went on in Iceland, so i think it is some what of a tendency.
“I do agree with the premise though, it matches my experiences as well. I’m an Eastern European living in USA, and yes, the dating market is quite different.”
Yes it probabaly is. I didnt do much womanizing when i went to the states a few years ago, but my impression was that male/female romantic interaction definitely worked in a markedly different way.
“Although women in general are indeed of worse character in USA, the biggest culprit is (low) quality of American women look-wise. The sheer number of fatties drives the value of somewhat decent looking women through the roof. ”
I fully agree. I never have been good at chattering in the american fashion. It simply feels to ackward and phony. And this is a big thing in the states. As well as formal dating.
The obsession that many american woman have with money and status is a big turnoff in my book. So im not surprised that american dating is predominantly about showing off wealth.
I think your right about the obesity problem. I have never in my life seen so many overweight people as i did when i went to the states. It was absolutely horrible.
To be fair though, the majority of these fatties would look at least half way decent, if they just had normal weight.
“The Paradox of Choice is the result, where the hotties are so overloaded with options that they don’t know what to do and go with the “exciting” wrong choice. Rinse and repeat throughout her 20s and cry in her 30s that there are “no good men left”. To be fair, there are good women in USA as well, but most of them are unattractive or are happily married since early age. Part of Rooshes problem with US women is also selection bias – if you chase bar sluts that put out the same night, that is all you get.”
Yes that is probabaly correct. Although the same problem of lack of commitment when the women are fairly young, also exist in Europe. In a place like scandinavia, the incentive for a woman to commit early is very low. The welfare state is more or less from cradle to grave, so marrying is almost considered a luxury.
There is something fundamentally wrong about this
sort of culture.
The selection bias is a huge issue. In this day and age, many of the women who frequent bars and clubs, are also savvy when it comes to dealing with men. Some of them have literally fucked hundreds of dudes. So the chances of meeting long term committed girls are somewhat reduced.
“In countries like Russia the situation is reversed – hotties are plentiful and decent men are scarce and valued. Women know the true value and make the better choice (if they can)”
Yes this is what i have been told by my russian friends. I think poverty plays a certain role in all of this. There are many hot russian women, and they primarily want “western” men because they are in to their wallet. So of course they invest a lot in their looks, as this might be their ticket out of poverty. I have also been told that there are many russian men who are drunkards. This certainly doesnt improve the mens prospects.
When that is said, most of the eastern european women i have met have at least had decent personalities, and many of them good looks.
I also like the fact that they havent been corrupted by feminism and PC to the same degree as in western europe. Its awful in scandinavia, but in some ways its even worse in the UK and the US.
Whilst there were many elements of truth in PUA ideas, there was also a lot of weird stuff and ideology that never had any basis in science mixed in. The idea that arseholes finish first was one of those weird ideological things which never had any basis in fact in my view.
I think Ian Ironwood (#24) and anonymous (#71) hit the nail on the head here.
#24 “However, I think the simplest way to break it down is to describe Alpha as behavior that inspires an (excitement) response in women, while Beta is that which inspires a (comfort) response in women.”
#71 “The alpha-beta pecking order business is real, but it’s at one remove from female attraction, because it represents, stands in for, indicates the things that attract: strength, sway, mastery on the one hand or kindness, thoughtfulness, conscientiousness on the other.”
So arsehole/niceguy is not actually the real underlying basis of attraction because that’s just cultural stuff that is ‘one step removed’ from the REAL biological basis for attraction which is:
Excitement (Alpha) and Comfort (Beta).
See the blog of economist Robin Hanson:
“The proper dichotomy is not “virile vs. wimpy” as has been supposed, but “exciting vs. drab,” with the former having the two distinct sub-groups “macho man vs. pretty boy.” ”
All this matches the PUA model I posted on Krauser’s blog some time ago:
In short, ‘Exciting’ is the real basis for female attraction, not ‘Arsehole’.
dude im stuck in america. it sucks. My society prefers assholes over genuine nice guys(not pussies) I at the core am a nice guy, but when i go out to meet women i have to act like an asshole to have some kind of chance, and it works.
I shouldnt have to act like a jerk in orde to get women. this country i live in is so ignorant and stupid!
i belive you are very accurate in most of the things you wrote, though I have met some exceptions.
But it doesn’t really matter, as I don’t think that most foreign girls travelling abroad would want anything else than having a smoking hot porteño guy trying to get in her pants and being treated as a princess at the same time. Most men around the world (specially in Brazil) just want the exactly the same thing and they aren’t as nearly as hot as a porteño and most would treat you like shit.
I don’t think most of foreign girls are looking for long-term relationships or marriage specially when they are travelling to a country like Argentina. And as the Buenos Aires natives have more to offer than the majority of men around the world, we might as well stick to them. Oh, but then we would all be sluts hiding the… How do you call it? Yeah, we have to preserve ourselves for the priceless crumbs trown by the so-called “good guys”…
Funny thing how you worked hard to imply that I am hidous or fatty. I am neither and I wish I could prove this, as much as I could prove @ 87 West LA that I am really a woman, but I can’t. But that’s ok, that’s what so-called “good guys” usually say and do.
Ah, BTW, the evil, heartless horny porteños also work hard to please their sexual parteners (by, for instance, going down on them for hours), unlike the owner of this blog and probably most of his followers. Ai, ai, que escolha difícil!!!
@105 Mariana –
Aha, finally some info on what you mean when you say these men “fuck like horses” … thank you.
Not quite what I had guessed.
Intriguing — but I suspect that what I had guessed is also true for you…
Yeah, I know you didn’t provide any proof that you’re a woman, or that you’re attractive, sexy, etc., but I’d rather risk being conned by choosing to believe you, because that’s more rewarding than the other option.
BTW, in the experience of many men (apparently, from what I’ve read), treating a woman like a princess means that man probably will never see her naked …
Care to comment about that Mariana?
Good post, I liked the confrontation of what is being percieved as alpha and beta.
If you look around in Germany, you will see young women who look all the same with their boyfriends who also look all the same. Of course, this is hugely exagerated, but I want to point out, that there is a very strong mainstream culture across most young people and as a guy in order to score a girl, you have to fit in.
It doesnt matter wheather girl is hot or not, they love being treated like a princess and since most guys fear being an outsider in their peer groups, they are very loyal supporters to their girls, even if they cannot **** them. This feeds their expectation that every guy has to worship them (unless you look like a celebrity) which leads to distorted or one-sided male-female relationships.
Besides the strong group cohesion, there is another interesting observation – instead of having a strong character or money, you really have to show yourself with friends and be present at parties in order to be seen as a high-status man. Having a large social circle is what seems to attract most women here and being present is what lets them notice and remember you, since they are extraordinary flaky.
In some parts of the world like poland or denmark. Men don’t have to be an asshole primitive alpha unlike England, America and Australia. The more dysfunctional the society the more primitive the desire of the women hence their preference for the hardass bad boyes.
@ 105 Mariana
As a Brazilian of Italian Descent, I must disagree when you say that Brazilian girls go after this Latin Lover kind of look, otherwise I wouldn’t be visiting this blog at all.
The funny thing is that when you and most women say that men treat them like shit, is exactly why we learn game, ’cause that’s the kind of men you gravitate to and get interested. I’ve been a “nice guy” for most of my life and well, you can see why I’m here and not talking to one the girls of my harem right now.
You probably are attracted to Argentinians for the novelty of it, I’d bet that the same Brazilian saying the exact same words to you wouldn’t have the same effect.
And sorry to disappoing you guys, but here in Brazil, game (most remarkably funny and cocky one) is still alpha.
Materialism is an excuse for all the unhappiness in people’s lives. If not trying to send 3 kids to college, it is not important. I’ve been there done that. I’ve had big house, expensive car and it still won’t bring you happiness. I’ll take less work and more free time any day. My ultimate goal is when the most expensive item I own is my computer!
[...] number of people have been confounded by the curious nature of Swedish women’s taste in men. Evidently, Swedish women do not chase [...]
If you have been hanging out with American girls, you are probably right. You should never treat one like a princess, they dont like it. I had an American bf in the past, he used to say I was the sweetest woman he has ever met – though the only thing I used to do was not yelling at him as heis ex-wife used to do, cooking 2 or 3 times a week and waking him up with kisses.
Shitty (and obvious) overvalueted self-perception of Brazilian men. They are the ugliest, rudest and the least intelligent in the whole Universe. I haven’t touched a Brazilian men in a long time and I will never, ever have anything with a Brazilian (cave)man again. They have NEVER said anything good, EVER, only horrible things, they don’t even like sex that só sabem te agarrar à força and show off to their male friends.
Your guessings are wrong, obviouly, but sure some Brazilian women like to be treated like shit: you deserve each other.
For both of you:
One of my American girlfriends is dating a standard Brazilian guy… Match made in hell. They yell at each other 24/7, they say horrible things and they have been together for more than 3 years. I bet they will never break up. Nuts.
Even Roosh seems to agrre with me that Brazilan men are cavemen and not really into sex itself: http://www.rooshv.com/brazilian-guy-game
[...] recently wrote a post about how the Polish women in Poland were much more open to “beta male game” than [...]
True that bro. Nice guys finish last.
Instead of alpha and beta, how about we use the terms, ‘like a man’ and ‘not like a man.’
If we’re really acting like men, then the behaviors commonly associated with an ‘alpha’ becomes a natural outflow of that attitude.
Men were never meant to wait on women, hand and foot.
Men were never meant to be that cry on the shoulder type of person.
Men were never meant to live their life trying to please a woman, never mind to the point of being to the detriment of his real life’s work (whatever that may be i.e. artist, engineer etc.)
Biblical manhood is about being the leader, being strong, being a decisive, never putting anything above serving God, following God’s plan for you, your life’s work, or your mission.
Women were meant to be physical/emotional support for men. Like a partner, second in command. And of course, a means to further the race.
I find that if you don’t naturally feel this way, there are a few reasons . . .
1) You need to read the Bible.
2) You need to lift weights, build muscle, and improve your hormonal profile. Once you’ve done that, these things will correct themselves automatically.
The men who are really ‘betas’ are the ones who don’t live according to biblical manhood.
I don’t get it. You claim to get laid by a lot of women in those countries, enough for a sample (so more than, say, 1 or 2 per each location), yet you say that in a healthy society women should seek to be treated the way you’d want your sister to be treated. Would you want your sister to be a notch on the belt, a one night stand or a short term concurrent girlfriend of some traveling pick up artist? I’m not judging you or them. It’s just strange that you’d represent women in each culture by the behavior of those who are willing to have sex for sex’s sake. Most of my friends go into each relationship hoping he’ll be the one, so it takes more than several dates and an indication that the guy is looking for love as well to get to bed. I think most women around the world don’t want to be treated like a girlfriend, they want to be the girlfriend.
“Men were never meant to be that cry on the shoulder type of person.”
So if your wife was having a hard time with something, you’d prefer not to know, or are you saying men should respond with “tough shit” any time their wives are upset? You said later that women were meant as men’s partners or second in command. Well, partners take care of each other. By saying that women were meant to be the emotional/physical support of men, you really, really put us on the pedestal. We are not so strong, wise and perfect that we wouldn’t need such support ourselves once in a while. I’m new to this corner of the internet, and it baffles me that people around here discuss only 2 possibilities: bossy, slutty feminist who enslaves her man OR a man who finds a devoted girl to serve him. What about two people who love, support and take care of each other?
“What about two people who love, support and take care of each other?”
The average young American male has an uber slim chance of finding a loving partner. If he were to find one, he would be promptly dumped if he ever started to show “concern” or provide “emotional support” (American women loathe that kind of behavior).
Hey, how about the those women that look for betas only when they are insecure about themselves because they had bad experiences in their previous relationships or do not feel loved by their family and friends?
I grew up in an environment where women obey and are subservient and men run the show. Well that mentality is dysfunctional. And all of us here know this.
I have a few of those alpha traits and they have helped me survive while living several years in foreign countries. But I do not feel comfortable if I need to behave like that for long periods.
Why? Because in order to maintain that lifestyle you need to fuck other people over. We are all connected and when you fuck other people over you also fuck yourself.
Art, psychedelics and being friendly to my fellow man is my stuff.
This is ridiculous. The sterotypes and generalities being thrown around here are silly. Also, good to see jealousy of America is alive and well, and for the Americans that hate their own country, move.
What if you can’t afford to move? I’m American and I hate my country. It’s run for the benefit of a foreign tribe and their lackeys. It’s only going to get worse.
I was very struck by Roosh’s post. It’s very seldom we get a large META view of different civilizations. Before reading Roosh I might not have guessed at the differences. Of course I new there were differences but he has quantified them somewhat. What if the reason Women are only looking for Alphas is they, as a group in society, unconsciously know VERY BAD things are going to happen in the U.S.
I have read before that Roman society had some of the very same things happen before it fell. No fault divorce being one of them. Has anyone read about Men-Women relations in ancient Rome before it fell?
Some of the traits of Danish Women don’t sound completely bad. At least they take care of themselves. Polish Women sound like heaven. Roosh you’re a fool if you don’t scoop up one of those before it too late.
The problem is what constitutes alpha is different in different cultures. In America alpha means being a arrogant D-bag like you’d see on Jersey Shore, or a walking ATM machine that can be used and abused. Eastern European girls I’ve met seemed to consider an alpha guy to be simply physically attractive and mentally stable. Asian girls seem to consider alpha to be intelligence and not so much money but your position in society.
Alpha = longer ring finger length thus higher T levels
Beta = shorter ring finger length, lower T levels
All other characteristics describing Alpha or Beta behaviors are variable.
The truth is, Beta women go for Beta men and Alpha women, Alpha men. Period.
I think what’s unfortunate is that our society today demands that both partners work, often long hours for relatively little pay in order to barely be able to provide for a home. In most cases, this is no longer enough money either (due to inflation of the money supply).
This is of course at the expense of our children who are growing up with no parental guidance or proper rearing whatsoever.
Meanwhile, life becomes about work and making money, regardless of how (even if it means being another public sector mooch), blurring the lines between right and wrong, all so you can make your wife happy with those extra material possessions she so wants.
All while the guy who does the right thing by not giving in to the system (even though it may not be as well paid) gets no ladies, no marriage, no kids etc.
Our society is sick because in order to make a life by getting married and having kids, you have to be a sell-out in one form or another by becoming yet another government widget-counter, or giving in to the corrupt system of taking a job that forcibly taxes your neighbor (and/or borrows from the next generation) in order to give you your salary, so you can pay the bills and make your wife happy.
But a real man who values doing the right thing won’t ever be happy under this corrupt system and ultimately, this will lead to marital discord and divorce, where things get even worse and you get all of your possessions taken away via the unjust legal system.
The current state of affairs between men and women is so dismal and void of any glimmer of hope, that this is why I believe strongly that the Lord Jesus is coming soon to destroy this corrupt system and set up his millennial reign.
These are the Last Days, my friends. Time to get right with the Lord.
[...] over whether to date, marry or partner with a male macho or subservient Man. Read this article: Not all Women Want an Alpha Male Male. Also, most women are no fools, women have openly expressed they do NOT want to lead a Man and they [...]
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“In countries like Russia the situation is reversed – hotties are plentiful and decent men are scarce and valued. Women know the true value and make the better choice (if they can)”
“”Yes this is what i have been told by my russian friends. I think poverty plays a certain role in all of this. There are many hot russian women, and they primarily want “western” men because they are in to their wallet. So of course they invest a lot in their looks, as this might be their ticket out of poverty. I have also been told that there are many russian men who are drunkards. This certainly doesnt improve the mens prospects.
When that is said, most of the eastern european women i have met have at least had decent personalities, and many of them good looks.
I also like the fact that they havent been corrupted by feminism and PC to the same degree as in western europe. Its awful in scandinavia, but in some ways its even worse in the UK and the US.”"
Sorry, but I live in Russia and the part about Russian women wanting Western men is largely false now. While women did tend to be very enamoured of foreigners and guys who would ‘take them away from it all’ in the past, the gap has narrowed fast and now those days are largely over. There are tons of rich Russian guys they can choose from now. Russian girls want their men to be Alpha, and also gentlemanly in many ways too so with a tinge of beta. A single successful guy here is indeed in demand, but they are few and far between, and frankly many if not most Russian guys cheat anyway. They simply have too many options, and any guy with money can have 3-4-5+ 8-9s at his beck and call (which screws it up for the expats here as it creates huge expectations for any foreigner). A lot of times there are either “sponsored’ girls or really hot single mom’s who don’t really have a shot at getting married with their sponsors but don’t mind getting lavish dinners and trips throughout the year. These girls can make a career out of it. All that said, there are a lot of really nice, sweet Russian girls too, but many of them are transplants from smaller towns outside Moscow.
That’s a bit Offtopic, but i thought you might give me some advice. On the subject of registering and hosting a domain name, I have no idea what I ought to do. A. Do I Need To register and host at the same place? Or B. Should I register my domain name with one company and host it with another? I would prefer to do A, but therein lies my issue. I want to register my domain name with NameCheap, because I like their rates. Nevertheless, I don’t want to host my site using them.
What would be your choice?