Outcome Independence Leads To Failure

I’ve been noticing a trend in self-help circles of being “outcome independent.” It’s when you don’t worry about the outcome and just put in the attempt and shrug your shoulders at the result. Outcome independence reminds me of kindergarten where you still got your gold star even if you didn’t accomplish anything.

Let me ask you this: were important men of history outcome independent?

Was Alexander the Great outcome independent when he decided to conquer the world?

Was Hitler outcome independent when he wanted to conquer Europe?

Was Theodore Roosevelt outcome independent when he wanted to be the most badass US president the country has ever seen?

Was Martin Luther King, Jr outcome independent when he wanted to eliminate segregation in the South?

What happened when these men suffered a set back to their goals? Did they say, “Oh, no problem, maybe I’ll have some better luck next time”? No, they got mad. They analyzed their mistakes, adjusted their strategy, and tried again until they succeeded.

My advice for you is to be outcome dependent. If you don’t succeed, you should get upset. You should feel down in the dumps. If do your ten approaches in the club and walk away empty handed, I don’t expect your head to be held up high. What went wrong? What can you change for next time? How will you use miserable feelings as fuel into getting what you want?

Understand that even the smartest of men come up with rationalizations to protect themselves. It’s hard to admit that you failed and came up short, but not doing so will put you farther from your goal. Separating your emotions from the desired result is a guaranteed way to rob yourself of a great motivating tool. Depend on the outcome and fight for it.

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  • Severian

    I think the idea of being outcome independent is that you focus on what you are doing, rather than what you are getting.

    Like in poker, even if you play your hand to the utmost of game theory, you might still loose, but as long as you play right and are outcome independent it doesn’t matter, because in the long run you will win.

  • http://www.solteroenmadrid.com Soltero en Madrid

    I’ve come to like this philosophical posts :pika:

  • http://littlepdog.com/ Starting Young & Aiming High

    The “outcome independence” thing comes from RSD. My two wings who are RSD junkies have been calling me too outcome dependent for a while now. I think the real advice they should be giving is to not be needy and to not take it personally when girls flake

  • http://www.themastersoffate.com Invictus III

    I think the whole idea of outcome independence deals with not coming off as try hard on the outside. If a woman senses that you are hell bent on getting the bang she’s less likely to be attracted. You can be outcome dependent but if it makes you look desperate you need to compartmentalize it. Give a fuck but don’t appear as though you give a fuck.

  • Joey Armstrong

    outcome independence is the opposite of reaction seeking. i think it’s a great thing. If you don’t take it personally when you get rejected you’ll be in a much better mindset for your next approach. also you’ll be a lot more fun and risk taking when you’re out approaching

  • qilimanjaro

    Being outcome-independent with women is different from being outcome-independent with one’s life. The former helps, the latter doesn’t

  • Anonymous

    I think Roosh could learn a lot from RSD philosophies.

    Goes the other way too, RSD acolytes could learn a lot from reading a select few manosphere blogs.

  • http://3rdmilleniummen.wordpress.com 3rd Millenium Men

    I take it more as outcome independent on girls… don’t worry about not getting one in particular when you’re gaming a lot, because sometimes there’s nothing you can do to control it and you don’t want to get oneitis.

    In all other parts of life… outcome dependence is critical.

  • Anonymous

    To me it’s about distinguishing between the self-defeating / self-pitying attitude of “Oh I didn’t care if I fucked her anyway so it doesn’t matter”

    vs. the attitude of “That sucked, rejection hurts but I’ll move on next time my Pepsi blue line bombs instead of hovering around liked a wounded hummingbird”.

    The difference is how the mindset affects your future (in)actions.

  • ve

    This BS comes from people confusing how someone should act and how someone should think in order to accomplish their goals. You should always act like you don’t give a shit if any particular woman rejects you. But if your goal is to get laid, you should absolutely care if women are rejecting you, particularly if it’s happening routinely, so you can think about how to change that result.

    I think it’s mainly keyboard jockeys spouting this feel-good shit anyway.

  • Rico

    Roosh, you’re missing the point. You don’t just “shrug your shoulders” and never try again. You learn from the experience and use it to improve your performance the next time.

    “Outcome Independence” just means don’t take rejection personally.

  • DAP

    Even though I am a huge fan of Outcome Independence; I think it’s okay to be Outcome Dependent as long as it doesn’t turn you into an obsessive head-case of nerves. Outcome Independence is great as long as you’re not phoning-it-in and giving a half-ass effort to win.

  • DAP

    Also, Outcome Dependence is needed when you want to win things like wars. Outcome Dependence is needed when actual lives are at stake. When all you want to do is fuck, then a little Outcome Independence goes a long way.

  • Todd

    For me it’s all about Return on Investment. Meaning if I put in my time, money, and energy into the early stages of dating a woman and my goal is to have sex with her, she damn well better be worth it and not wasting the three resources I listed above. I’ve noticed a growing trend among women that they will string you along and try to not give up the bang for as long as possible. They shit test and gauge your attention by playing cat and mouse games expecting you to jump through hoops like a monkey.

    I counter it by escalating from the very beginning and framing things so sex occurs as quickly as possible using logistics and planning. If it doesn’t happen I let her do the dating work or just move on.

    They want to take things slow because they have 3-4 other dudes in the loop giving her attention and you and her have to get to know each other. Maybe i’m outcome independent in the sense that if sex isn’t accomplished by date 4 I realize my time is being wasted and move on.

  • J Doe

    I’m not sure I agree with this post. In my experience I’ve noticed that people who are too outcome dependent are too scared to take huge risks because their mind immediately focuses on the worst case scenario. Rather than playing to win, they play ‘not to lose’ if that makes sense. While the outcome is certainly important, focus on the present moment is most important of all. People who are outcome independent still care about results, they just seem to be better at absorbing setbacks.

  • Phil Galt

    Hello Roosh:

    I’d like to thank you for a very profound and though-provoking post.
    I have been involved in a number of “outcome independent” situations (am in a border-line one right now), and your post gives me reason to reflect on this. I’ll spare you the anecdotes, but in almost all cases the common denominator was that I was taking responsibility for someone else’s screw-up. In other words the previous runners in the relay made as little effort as possible, and I was when the baton was finally handed to me, I was expected made up for lost time by “applying myself” and “giving 100-and-10%”. It didn’t help that me being the good little beta (read moron), I actually believed that if the situation wasn’t working I just needed to try harder.
    Anyways, thanks again for the eye-opener.

  • DAP

    Outcome Independence gets you out of your head and into your body so that you can take action.

  • Phinn

    Outcome independence is a euphemism for avoiding oneitis.

    Oneitis is the anxiety that comes from being rejected by your target. That anxiety is a product of a mindset of scarcity, and the desperation that flows from it when your one and only prospect is slipping away.

    We call it oneitis. Women call it desperate or needy. Nothing telegraphs low value faster or more clearly.

    Calling it “outcome independence” misses the point, and obscures the fact that what really matters is demonstrating that you have other options.

  • Artist71

    I agree with Phinn here, not to detract from Roosh as his post is very on target when dealing with LIFE goals that aren’t female related.
    But normally the quickest way to drive them off is to focus on them. Have a life, be passionate about your goals there and totally outcome dependent…but with women, yeah show that at your own risk. American women at least will run to the man who doesn’t need them or appear as they don’t even want them, seen it time and time again.
    When you couldn’t care less is when they will.

  • hiphopanonamous

    Great point. One that is missed by the acolytes of Eckhart Tolle.

    I’m a big fan of Nick Saban, who preaches his “Process.” Being a champ before the championship. Actively going out and getting the results you want because it’s absolutely within your control. By putting yourself in the best possible position to win, you do.

    The Power of Now will teach you to go sit in a cave, be satisfied that you are “present,” and particular results that you want don’t come to you, it’s ok man it just wasn’t meant to be. But hey, at least you’re PRESENT!

  • bodmon

    not truly caring about success is a certainly bad thing. but i don’t think that “outcome independence” as thrown around in the community actually means that.

    i think that outcome independence is realizing that pick-up is a difficult and unpredictable endeavour, which difficulty and unpredictability serve to deny a lot of guys a measurable guarantee of success. it is not not caring about success, but is realizing that rejection will be a natural part of a slow and steady road of progress, and taking care not to identify your self-worth with these rejections.

    yes, you should not make half-assed approaches. but then you should not expect girls to fall in love with them because you’ve read a shit ton of ebooks. the standard you should hold yourself to is: considering my present advantages, knowledge, and capabilities, did i make the most full-assed approach i could make and push things as far as i could? things beyond this are either well outside of your skill level or control and your inability to master them and make absolutely sure that the girl likes/kisses/fucks you should not be taken personally.

    after all, did you not say in your roosh program post that an aspiring pua’s first 100 approaches will most likely not net him any bangs? and yet here you say that you should be disappointed if you do 10 approaches one night and get nothing. i remember on my first night in vegas in april of this year i made 10 approaches and got 3 makeouts and a one night stand. the next night at another club i made 10 approaches and got shit. was i mad at myself? no, not really. i put in the work i knew how to put in.

    ultimately roosh i think that it’s a quirk of yours that you can have pause and be critical about women and still be able to approach. i find that pouring over red pill truths really fucks up my game and the relentless, almost delusional positivity (i.e. “state”) that i and many guys require to approach reliably.

    i say all of this because outcome dependence is something i’ve been suffering a lot of lately. i get into my head about making the perfect approach and achieving the perfect outcome, and i take rejections pretty hard. i need to stop doing this.

  • Jay

    They say the best players are the ones who really don’t give a fuck, on many levels I think you would agree. Yet isn’t this just a rather crude way of saying that they are independent of outcome? Not much of a difference there.

    Also, one could argue, there’s not much of a difference from those who are outcome dependent with those who need external validation to feel good about themselves, if you catch my drift. Women can smell it on a man, and if they had the choice of two players with equal game, no doubt they’d take the one who cared less.

  • Higher Game

    Haha, nice inside jab there about Russia not really being a part of Europe. ;)

  • http://nigelsbiggameblog.wordpress.com/ Nigel Big Game

    Mr. Roosh,

    I couldn’t agree more. Every time I roll out to plug up a new ass, I stay out until I bring something back.

    Outcome matters.

  • Anonymous

    “Separating your emotions from the desired result is a guaranteed way to rob yourself of a great motivating tool.”

    I think you buried the lead here. The main point is that many guys, especially (not even) the smartest ones, approach self-improvement as an engineering problem to be solved, thereby robbing themselves of one of nature’s greatest spurs to greatness: negative emotions.

    Pain, wounded pride, shame, humiliation, crying, fear—in ancient days these were not dirty words, or things to wall off with convenient maxims like “Process over outcome.” They were considered the essential tools for eventual success.

  • http://www.georgemeany.org/ George

    Outcome independence is one of the best shortcuts there is to get attraction going.
    *A man that is not desperate for the outcome is assumed by women to be resourceful and therefore attractive. This is the opposite of needyness and possibly the second most attractive feature a man can have (the most attractive one being other women orbiting you).
    *Outcome independence makes it possible to focus instead of worrying about failing.
    *Outcome independence will sort a whole lot of problems like not feeling the need to change your game for a hotter girl than usual, not getting approach anxiety, not hesitating when telling your opinion etc.

  • Iknowexactly

    I think it needs to be broken down more than this. A famous NFL quarterback once said “Extraordinary results take a lot of unextraordinary preparation.”

    Eating your vegetables, getting lean, practicing approaching, all these things are intermediate processes that are needed for non-naturals to reach their potential with women/ get the best woman they can.

    So the whole idea of “getting mad and fixing something” actually does make sense in a certain area, that of being aggressive enough with women, but it’s ineffective and irrelevant when it comes to money, looks etc.

    I think there’s definitely a point to keeping in mind what the outcome you want is! It’s easy to forget..

  • http://razor99_2020@Yahoo.com gorio2

    agree w the detractors that it projects needness,.iff u strike out its fine…learn from it…move on

  • Anonymous

    Why do we fall Bruce ?
    So we can learn to pick ourselves up.

  • Roosh

    Bottom line is if you don’t get upset by failure, you’ll find it hard to succeed.

  • 20th Level

    This is volume sales we’re dealing with here. One SHOULD be outcome independent on an individual basis. One should NOT be outcome independent on a consistent basis.

    Worrying about whats going on in one chicks head is not worth the brain damage…period end of story.

    On the other hand if you are failing on a CONSISTENT BASIS you need to take a step back and seriously check yourself because you are doing something wrong.

    Now I believe becoming upset is not necessary. What IS necessary is that you be completely honest with yourself and realize that your beer gut is too big, the only one that thinks that t-shirt is funny is you and those shoes went out of style in 2002.

    You need to care enough not to say “I don’t care” and actually take the time to fix your shit tier game if you are failing on a consistent basis.

  • Buddhist Chick

    Salaam Roosh!

    Chétori shoma Khanom?

    You are missing the point of outcome independence. The concept was first created in Asian philosophical systems. It is a recurrent theme in the Bhagavad Gita.

    In order to understand it you will have to understand the context that it was originally used in.

    You seem to be at least of average, if not slightly higher intelligence, so I’d recommend studying some Eastern philosophy.

    We can discuss further when we meet at your meetup.

  • Pierce

    Good post. Outcome dependence focuses you to improve your technique and strategy. You become a better, upgraded version QUICKLY. Sometimes within 24 hours.

  • Anonymous

    great advice. We need to be passionate about what we do and care about the outcome. Once a potential employer said in an interview he didn’t like my attitude as I was too passionate about my work. I never heard more BS. The more we care, the better the results

  • Ryan

    Outcome independent? Roosh, you use entirely too much brain power to sleep with random women. You’re a closet beta.

    The truth is: sleeping with women is not all that complicated. It’s instinctual what to do, and what NOT to do. Would you walk up to a 6’8″ boxer, and punch him in the face? Probably not. Unless he has a weird sense of humor.

    Similarly, I’m not going to walk up to a girl, and exude ‘need’. Now here’s the part of your approach that I think goes over your head entirely. You cannot , I repeat: CANNOT underestimate the intrinsic value of a being a foreign man in their country.

    For example, after reading a handful of your blogs, you seem (at times) flabbergasted with how many foreign women surprise you with coitus at the end of your visit. If there’s any one thing to remember about women, it’s that when they sleep with foreign men – it doesn’t “count”. And I suppose in that perspective – it could be argued they “fucked you”. More than you “fucked them”.

    One more thing is: condom etiquette. Being a heterosexual male, with a working penis – I do NOT like condoms. Now you sleep with a wide variety of foreign females you meet with only superficial knowledge (if even that) of their sexual exploits. Naturally, a condom is necessary. That’s why I could never do what you do. One condomless bang is worth eight wrapped sexploits! As I type this: I’m been lucky to be STD-free. But I can’t imagine those same risks I took applied to a number of different countries would yield the same luck!

  • http://AroundtheWorldin80Jobs.com Turner

    @35

    Maybe I am just tired, or hit Amsterdam too hard today, but wtf does your “truth is” statement mean? Convoluted analogy at best.

    Second- while being a foreigner usually plays to your advantage, to say that any guy who is a foreigner can walk up and will just “instinctually” have his dick fall into a vagina is retarded. You havent been abroad, or are some troll or … fuck I dont know what you are. I am tired. As a heterosexual man with a working penis I am too flabbergasted to articulate what points you are making.

  • http://thecaptainpower.blogspot.com thecaptainpower

    I think 1 out 10 businesses fail, but the ones that succeed usually make a lot of money. Just like when you get laid. I usually go 1 for 100, but when I get that one BANG Its all worth it…

    http://thecaptainpower.blogspot.com/2012/10/whiter-teeth-adds-2-inches-to-your-penis.html

  • Anonymous

    Complete misunderstanding of outcome independence. I have had the best results through outcome independence in everything I have done. Outcome independence teaches you that what matters is the process and once you master the process you get the results you want. People that are outcome dependent tend to have sloppy technique and usually become stagnant. That is something I have seen happen in (Boxing, chess, graffiti, Physics, Mathematics) which are my usual activities.

  • Ryan

    @ Turner

    I only vouch for my experience. I can’t vouch for guys that have bad luck with women. That wasn’t meant to be an insult. Just an observation. Usually people who get really mad at random comments on the Internet are socially awkward.

  • LHMX

    “Outcome independent? Roosh, you use entirely too much brain power to sleep with random women. You’re a closet beta.”

    “Usually people who get really mad at random comments on the Internet are socially awkward.”

    Opens with an unsolicited insult, launches into an unrelated diatribe about how the host is ‘doing it wrong’ (an insult by other means),and ends with a logical trap to (hopefully) make the recipient feel silly for their natural reaction to his unsolicited insults.

    Keep it classy, “Ryan”.

  • http://necorochi.wordpress.com/ Necorochi

    I agree with Roosh because it makes you want to push yourself more, ether way LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES.

  • Apollo

    Awesome post. Awesome comments.

    I agree with Roosh: Be outcome dependent.

    I also agree with others: Be outcome independent.

    Here’s my thought process behind it:
    The biggest mistake we’re making here is word choice. I think what everyone, especially Roosh, is really saying is DON’T BE OUTCOME INDIFFERENT.

    Don’t half-ass your effort because you know the results won’t count. Don’t treat failure like it’s no big deal on one hand or a death knell on the other.

    In short: Give a damn, damn it. Hate losing. Love winning. Refine your Process relentlessly.

    On top of that, Roosh (in a previous post) mentioned the importance in differentiating between focusing on THE woman vs. focusing on women. In effect, he showed us how & why to decouple your ultimate victory(getting laid) from any one woman.

    Which is in effect the same definition of Outcome Independence. But if you don’t refine your process and set yourself up to win, you won’t even have an outcome to talk about.

    The real battle here is Independence v. Indifference, not Independence v. Dependence.

    Be Outcome Independent, Process Dependent(where Roosh’s point comes in), Rejection Indifferent.

  • GuessHandsOn

    I disagree. Let me explain.

    (1) First, you take it as given that feelings of ‘frustration’ or ‘failure’ as motivating. It is assumed that if you fail, you’ll feel bad and these feelings will make you try harder next time.

    But it’s also possible that these feelings can block one/demotivate. Think of it this way: If you shock a mouse with some electricity every time the mouse reaches for the cheese, the mouse will eventually stop trying.

    Similarly, feelings of failure or frustration could be the ‘electric shock’ that stops men from trying. (Of course, we are conscious beings and we can step back and reason about the whole situation. If necessary, we can continue to reach for the cheese despite our inclinations/instincts.) There is only so much failure that one can afford in terms of all kinds of resources – time, money, psychological health and so on.

    I’m not saying that failure can’t be motivating but one should strike a fine balance.

    I think it’s easy to get frustrated and bored – it’s much harder to keep such feelings at a healthy distance – i.e. not too distant as to have no corrective feedback, no too close as to completely demotivate.

    (2) You assume – as most in the manosphere do – that in game, it all depends on you. Everything is under your control.

    These may be psychologically beneficial assumptions to make (and empirical research does show that healthy, confident people assume that they have more control) but they are not accurate.

    We should be honest and admit to the stochastic nature of the pickup process. A whole host of factors, from male to female ratio to the game level/aggressiveness of other males in the room are not under our control. Suppose I’m in a party at a fancy club with a male population of mostly NFL football players. It would be foolish of me to blame myself if I don’t get anything even after 10 approaches – guess what, all the hoes are holding out for the NFL cock.

    Also in contrast, you tweeted about a bar in EE where male-to-female ratio was something like 4 to 17 leading to the one of the easiest lays ever. I rest my case.

    You yourself have said that you don’t get laid every time you go out. If it were deterministic, you (or people like you) of all people would get laid every time.

    You need to be able to discern what factors are under your control, what factors aren’t and focus on those that you can control.

    If the outcome doesn’t depend on your locus of control, it is not rational to blame yourself.

    Thanks.

  • Cyrone

    ^ I think your point (1) is valid, but that’s only sound advice for newbies just getting started in game. They are told that just so that artists can get them to start working at it. I think Roosh’s post is aimed more at intermediate-level artists or at least those that have already hit their stride.

    And at that point, you DO have to start caring about the result.

  • Anonymous

    “No, they got mad. They analyzed their mistakes, adjusted their strategy, and tried again until they succeeded.”

    Or in Hitler’s case, they got mad and killed themselves.

  • http://gameforomegas.wordpress.com Omega Man

    If your primary problem is relaxing, and you need to gain experience- a very basic starting point in game- outcome independence is important. I guess as you gain experience and confidence this changes.

  • RyanMarlowe

    It’s the difference between short-term outcome inpendence and long-term outcome independence. Do I care if I win right now? No. Do I care if I win eventually? Hell yes.

    I don’t care if I get laid with a particular girl but I sure as shit care if I get laid eventually.

  • Severian

    The Chinese dont take kindly to aging spinsters, despite being the largest sausage fest in history.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/12/opinion/global/chinas-leftover-women.html?_r=0

    BEIJING — The headlines scream like sensational tabloids: “Overcoming the Big Four Emotional Blocks: Leftover Women Can Break out of Being Single.” “Eight Simple Moves to Escape the Leftover Women Trap.” And my personal favorite: “Do Leftover Women Really Deserve Our Sympathy?”

    These eye-catching topics do not appear in supermarket-aisle gossip magazines. They are articles about single, professional women published on the Web site of China’s state feminist agency, the All-China Women’s Federation. The Communist Party founded the Women’s Federation in 1949 to “protect women’s rights and interests.”

    In 2007, the Women’s Federation defined “leftover” women (sheng nu ) as unmarried women over the age of 27 and China’s Ministry of Education added the term to its official lexicon. Since then, the Women’s Federation Web site has run articles stigmatizing educated women who are still single.

    Take this uplifting column from March 2011 that ran just after International Women’s Day:

    “Pretty girls don’t need a lot of education to marry into a rich and powerful family, but girls with an average or ugly appearance will find it difficult. These kinds of girls hope to further their education in order to increase their competitiveness. The tragedy is, they don’t realize that as women age, they are worth less and less, so by the time they get their M.A. or Ph.D., they are already old, like yellowed pearls.”

    [...]

    “Many highly educated “leftover women” are very progressive in their thinking and enjoy going to nightclubs to search for a one-night stand, or they become the mistress of a high official or rich man. It is only when they have lost their youth and are kicked out by the man, that they decide to look for a life partner. Therefore, most “leftover women” do not deserve our sympathy.”

  • anon

    Roosh I agree with 99% of what you say but this is terrible advice. “Outcome independance” from what I understand means focusing on the process, not the result. If you focus on the process of something properly and well enough, like you advocate in this article, then the results will take care of themselves and thus you should not worry about them. Depending on the outcome is essentially saying “you are your failures”, not a great way to go about doing anything.

  • Anonymous

    Roosh you might alienate your Europeon readers by writing post about having balls.

  • madmax

    I think outcome independency is ONLY useful for practice. I.e. if I have approach experience, I might focus only on one aspect of the approach, until I have practiced a few times. But other than that….I am getting used more and more to go for sex. I don’t give a fuck anymore about her nonsense. And yes, to a man, only results matter.

    I remember as a kid every ‘good teacher’ was repeating ‘Be sportsman like. What matters is partecipating, not winning’.

    Fucking bullshit. That only works if one is an ex-champion or something.

  • madmax

    # 50 Anonymous

    wow man, what a revealing insight. Yeah you are right, let’s be careful! Roosh might drive away all European guys!

    You are a fucking genius. Most innovative statistical researcher. Fuck me, man, how do you do it?

  • madmax

    Roosh, I love your writings, man….whether it’s the guides or these articles. You kick ass. Whenever I am met with ‘failure’, yes I do ask myself if this is all worth it, especially the women stuff, but then I think of all the experiences you shared and all I have learned, and all of a sudden it’s not so bad anymore. Thank you man

  • The Vain Yogi

    Being upset by failure is not the same thing as wanting success, nor does it lead one to seek success. One set of mind can get you into avoidance mode – you are running away from failure. The other gets you into seeking mode – you are running towards success. Either approach is valid, it will get you back on track.
    Of course you can transmute one into the other as you imply. It takes some serious thinking and hard work. Maybe stoicism is a better word for you than outcome independence.

  • Val Balddigger

    Sorry, Roosh. This time you missed with a great margin. Like many here have summed up already you cannot compare life goals with picking up of girls. Unlike people in life, girls are genetically programmed to reject men who want them bad (needy=of lower value=not popular with other women). And being outcome dependent and not showing it would be an extra task to bear.

  • Ryan

    @ 40

    My name implies class. Catch up! Haha. You’re confusing tongue-in-cheek humor with dropping a slew of expletives.

  • http://theprofessorspeaks.wordpress.com Drew Peacock

    first comment hit the nail on the head. outcome independence is about being process oriented, not appearing to be results oriented. Sort of like a job interview… the most important part of the discussion is usually money, however, it is casually brought up in the end as an afterthought.
    Also similar to the concept of Amused Mastery and acting aloof, especially when you’re interested in a girl, but giving her the perception that she is just another option in the buffet.

  • Das Moose

    Outcome independence MAY lead to SOME failure. This doesn’t mean it’s bad or not. Being nonchalant about the outcome IS, but I think the general message, the underlying truth shared with both roosh’s lifestyle/evolution as a person and the proper outcome independent mindset, is to not neglect changing circumstances nor to neglect potential opportunities along the way. You may find new opportunities that arise from hard work in one field that you didn’t recognize before–just like Roosh initially just wanting to bang girls, but eventually concentrating more on gender relations, social issues, and self-improvement.

    And of course banging girls.

  • Cicero

    I agree with both Roosh’s point, and the point people such as Style have made. The argument between the two sides is largely semantics.

    One one hand, if a girl rejects you in a bar, if you let it affect your mood, it could sink your entire night. Being outcome independent in this context helps. You want to analyze the situation to see how you fucked up so you can do better, but you also need to realize that some things are not in your control.

    Roosh’s point is more of a Robert Greene ‘Mastery’ yin-yang type of argument, whereby great suffering stokes your desire and sows the seeds of your next conquest, or slew of conquests. You don’t want to accept defeat lying down, you want it to sting. This point is often made in NLP circles…

  • J Doe

    @Severian, just remember this. No matter what modern feminists say, men and women are different. If you need proof of this, ask any 18-35 male how many women he could bang in a week if given the chance, and then ask women of the same demographic the same question. Make sure it’s in a judgement-free environment, and men will say 7-13 and women will have a hard time answering.

    Anyway, I think the quotes you posted will only be offensive to women to be honest, because any straight man who reads them will agree. Men get more appealing with age, but women get worse and worse. Men are like wine, and women like milk. We get better with age, and women get worse. It’s just genetics. Men want fertile women who are capable of reproducing, and women want men who are stable winners, with experience in the world. Women want a winner, and men want to win.

    The attention women resent in their youth will be what they crave when they are too old to receive it.

    Younger women are more attractive to men. Any man who has actually been with an older woman in his youth will tell you this simple fact: “Any woman who is 30+ without a husband has a huge personality defect (or is just plain ugly) that has gone unchecked, which means that nobody wants to be around her after fucking her. If you want proof of this, ask any older man if they would bang Kendell or Kylie Jenner…Trust me, they would.

    The fundamental problem between male/female interactions is this: Men accept the animal that they are, but the animal that they are is frowned upon by society. Women reject the animal that they are with a passion which is also frowned upon by society.

    In my opinion, human intelligence has gone ‘beyond’ the animal that we all are, so we are ashamed of our natural human impulses, which is a shame. I honestly wonder what the future holds for humanity in light of this depressing fact.

  • Iiloao8

    Hitler never conquered europe. Neither Alexander the world.

  • madmax

    # 61 Iiloao8

    you are full of shit, Alexander was the master of the known world, and even though Hitler the psycho didn’t conquer Europe, he went very close and was more than capable.

    you need to learn some history and stop playing videogames where you see manga dudes wanting to take over the world.

  • A

    “Tom, don’t let anybody kid you. It’s all personal, every bit of business. Every piece of shit every man has to eat every day of his life is personal. They call it business. OK. But it’s personal as hell. You know where I learned that from? The Don. My old man. The Godfather. If a bolt of lightning hit a friend of his the old man would take it personal. He took my going into the Marines personal. That’s what makes him great. The Great Don. He takes everything personal Like God. He knows every feather that falls from the tail of a sparrow or however the hell it goes? Right? And you know something? Accidents don’t happen to people who take accidents as a personal insult.”
    ― Mario Puzo, The Godfather

  • Pingback: Outcome independence, revisited « Tao of Dirt

  • Joost

    The whole point about Outcome Independence is simply : Don’t be afraid to try, don’t be afraid to fail.

    It doesn’t mean : Don’t give a shit about the result.

  • http://www.georgemeany.org/ George

    By the way, this post is a contradiction of your earlier post: http://www.rooshv.com/be-that-guy

  • http://www.georgemeany.org/ George
  • taterearl

    On the outside with women you are outcome independent such as the bad result itself doesn’t take you down…on the inside with women you are constructively discontent…the bad result gives you the motivation to become better.

  • Giovonny

    The tricky part is knowing when to be outcome independent and when to be outcome dependant.

    I think when you are just starting off in game, its useful to be outcome independent. This is when you are getting over approach anxiety and getting comfortable talking to strangers.

    However, once you develop the baseline skills and confidence, its useful to be more outcome dependent. You need to really care about getting results and have a burning desire to succeed.

    There is a time for both sides of this philosophy.

  • http://odinslounge.wordpress.com Drama

    It’s probably more of an issue of semantics.

    I think of being outcome independent as having other options available outside the current one.

    Of course you try your best with what you’re working on but if it doesn’t work you move on to the next task.

    “They analyzed their mistakes, adjusted their strategy, and tried again until they succeeded.”

    Except you can’t exactly analyze, adjust, and try again until you finally get THAT girl. Rather, the concept applies to the larger scheme of things. If you fail with her, try with another, but don’t let the failure with #1 deter you from trying with #2.

    As I said initially I think it’s mostly a matter of semantics.

  • somedude…

    Outcome Independent:
    Emotions can be a great motivator for action, but after certain threshold it can be paralyzing. Keeping the emotions under surveillance of logic and being a master of emotions instead of slave of it.

    Ofcourse cold logic without emotions misses the whole point of joy and fun!
    But overworking emotions ruins things than its helping out.

    Emotions – take in as much as it helps and stay outcome independent (ironically latching on the goal despite the emotions are paralyzing you) is the way to go!

  • Gnar

    This is a misguided article. It assumes that outcome independence entails identifying with (and deriving your self-esteem from) a particular result. This misses the mark. You can learn from feedback without having an emotional attachment to it.

    Outcome independence and goal setting are not mutually exclusive. Outcome independence makes it easier to achieve your goals because you can focus on what you want, instead of focusing on avoiding what you don’t.

  • everyhumanbeingcanrelate

    Outcome independence isn’t about being apathetic to the outcome. Further, it does not advocate an unplanned alignment of your intentions, and actions toward a particular result. It is, however, a tool to avoid being so focused on the outcome that you derail the actualization of that goal by not being fully cognizant of how to navigate the terrain of a given scenario.

  • Eugene Song

    I agree with Severian, in fact I was looking for a better way to describe “outcome dependent,” and I feel like a better way to describe that phenomena is “process focused.”
    A prime example of that would be John Wooden’s philosophy. He never encouraged his players to think about the “outcome” winning or losing, but told them that your goal is to become the best player/team you could possible become.

    “Success is peace of mind which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you did your best to become the best you are capable of becoming.”

    He won eleven championships and attributes that success as a by product of staying process-focused.