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Also, i know another woman who is 30 who was very ill during her 20s. I cant remember the name of the disease. In any event, she is better now and just starting to really date.

So some 30 year old women are single for legitimate reasons.

I came upon this site by chance (I usually frequent politics sites, but Instapundit linked to this). My hope for the future has been restored. I am a baby boomer, and it seems most of you are from younger generations. Although you have different views on the post, you all seem to have a far more realistic view of life’s trade-offs than my generation. Good luck in finding the right balance (which will be different for each of you, and for some will not involve children). As for having kids, I have three in various stages of leaving the nest, and my feelings about them are (i)they are money sinkholes, (ii) at each stage of their lives, they have been royal pains in my ass, (iii) I can’t imagine not having had them, (iv) I am certain that my last thought before I die will be that having been a father was the highpoint of my existence on Earth, and (v) they have given to me far more than I ever could give them. So for those of you so inclined, find the best mate you can and start the “making love without the contraceptives” thing. And good luck!

: that’s why i wrote *potential* alpha males. good looks will only get a guy an audition with a girl.

“Good look” on photos is not important at all; almost every alpha I’ve seen had pretty average looks by modern standards. If you look through the history, you’ll find a lot of arguments to prove it as well.

: since a constellation of traits defines the alpha male, i’d guess the number of alphas in a given male population is somewhat lower than 20%. probably not as low as 5%, though, if by “alpha” we mean a man who is desired by at least 1 out of 10 women wherever he goes.

I always wonder why people invent their own definitions instead of following standards? The definition of alpha male is well-known – it is “the individual in the community whom the others follow and defer to”.

: alphas aren’t going anywhere. the game may change but the rules stay the same.

The studies I’ve read saying they are. Are you referring to other studies, to your own experience, or just sound your dreams? Please clarify.

: this is the classic fall-back argument. while it is trivially true that no two people are EXACTLY the same, the exercise i set up with my little question illustrates that having a kid as a single woman is a negative hit in the dating market.

Yes, in your example it is. But, because your example does not represent real life, it has no cosequences in real life. I can even bet for $100 that in your life you will NEVER have such a choice, even similar choice.

: when a man sizes her up as dating material he will take the kid into account along with whatever other attributes she may have.

Correct. And, depending in man, it could be either positive or negative attribute. You just assuming that this is always negative; this is wrong. It is like being blonde or brunette; not everyone likes blondes even if you do.

: but don’t mistake your personal evidence to the contrary for a conviction that what i say is mere opinion.

Sure. That’s why I have asked your age and long-term relationship experience. The reason is that I share my real world experience, and I’d like to know whether you share _your_experience_, or your opinion (or even dreams). While I understand that my experience could be limited, it is still some experience, and I’d like to compare it with someone’s else, and most likely learn from it. However there is no real reason to compare my experience with someone’s _opinion_ in lack of real LTR experiense. It would be the same as a person tries to discuss plane flying skills while all his “flying” experience was seen in movies.

: it’s nice to have that option of more kids. that is, more of your *own* kids.

Again, not every man cares so much about *own* kids. Again you ignoring everything I’ve talked about, including adoption. And again you’re projecting your own opinion on the whole world.

: beauty is necessary but not sufficient for a happy relationship.

It is not even necessary. In real world it is actually more difficult to maintain a healthy relationship with a really beautyful person because she is usually spoiled, and it hurts the relationship. Again, everything comes with its own price, and you’ll have somehow to pay this price in relationship.

: it would make no difference.

It would make a huge difference. However I know the number already, so it is not necessary.

: chicks dig alphas. these are the men they desire regardless of how relationship oriented the men are.

If a girl is not looking for a relationship, this is correct. But we’re not discussing this scenario now. We’re discussing a girl who wants a LTR, and in this case she won’t be picking alpha for this. Alphas are only good for sex, and most of them aren’t good in bed (again, the evolution does not need it, his goal is not to tie up a woman). They are not good for LTR, and she won’t pick them for LTR. Again, we’re discussing a girl who has failed one or more LTRs already, and has learned enough to make a wise choice.

: when the men they most desire are pumping and dumping them for childless sexy women

They’re doind the same to the childless women as well. The problem is that alphas do not need a relationship, not that someone is not hot enough.

that’s why i wrote *potential* alpha males. good looks will only get a guy an audition with a girl. since a constellation of traits defines the alpha male, i’d guess the number of alphas in a given male population is somewhat lower than 20%. probably not as low as 5%, though, if by “alpha” we mean a man who is desired by at least 1 out of 10 women wherever he goes.

1 out of 10 may not seem like great odds, but keep in mind that the majority of men are lucky to be attractive to 1 out of 100 women!

“justify the evolutional elimination of alphas.”

alphas aren’t going anywhere. the game may change but the rules stay the same.

“Alphas do not work on “capturing” a selected woman.”

oh, they do. they just do it with more style.

“Alphas do not follow rules. They set rules of the game”

the rules i’m talking about apply to everyone. reality doesn’t give the courtesy of a pass to alphas. they may be leaders of men but their genetic directive is leader of them.

“The main problem with your example is that there is just NO two single woman equal in every way.”

this is the classic fall-back argument. while it is trivially true that no two people are EXACTLY the same, the exercise i set up with my little question illustrates that having a kid as a single woman is a negative hit in the dating market. when a man sizes her up as dating material he will take the kid into account along with whatever other attributes she may have.

“what you are saying is just your opinion, and far from truth.”

if you are in a happy relationship, then what i say here won’t matter to you.
but don’t mistake your personal evidence to the contrary for a conviction that what i say is mere opinion.
the lonely wails of single moms everywhere attest to the horrors of the biomechanical grindhouse.

“there is really no difference raising your own child, or someone else’s; if everything works fine, you’ll have more kids anyway.”

it’s nice to have that option of more kids.
that is, more of your *own* kids.
helps the medicine of raising another man’s child go down easier.

“Even if you marry a miss World, the initial lust based on sex appeal will wear off in following 3-6 months.”

beauty is necessary but not sufficient for a happy relationship.

“Is it so hard to reply with a number?”

it would make no difference.

“However if the person hasn’t even been in such a relationship”

i agree.
that is not me.

“So what?”

chicks dig alphas. these are the men they desire regardless of how relationship oriented the men are. and in the merciless thunderdome of human mate preference single moms are gonna find themselves on the short end of the bitterly lonely stick when the men they most desire are pumping and dumping them for childless sexy women.

> the study confirmed that women are the choosier sex, but it also suggested that # of potential alpha males hovers around 20% of the population.

Your interpretation of this study is incorrect. The results were only based on physical appearance, while the biggest difference between alphas and betas is BEHAVIOR, not how do they look like.

: not really. most people still assortatively mate and marry someone like themselves.

It doesn’t matter. The numbers are large enough to justify the evolutional elimination of alphas. Note that interracial marriage is just an example of how modern gene pool mixing works; international (or even interstate) marriages also add a lot to it. That’s a big difference between humans and, for example, chimps – chimps could not travel from other end of Africa, and have children in local brood.

: this depends. while it’s generally true that an alpha male good with women will play the field more because he won’t experience the morale-deflating sting of rejection as much, once he captures the heart of an amazingly beautiful woman equal to him in sexual market value he’ll be more likely to commit.

It’s a nice sounding theory, but unfortunately it doesn’t work. Alphas do not work on “capturing” a selected woman. It is beta strategy. Alphas fuck, and go on – basically, in non-stop. Sure, he could pause for a year-two, but it won’t last.

: everyone plays games.
: since game-playing is an intrinsic part of the alpha’s character, he can afford to scoff at those whose learning curves are steeper.

“Playing game” by its definition assumes “following rules”. You have to follow rules to play the game, and this makes it artifical. Alphas do not follow rules. They set rules of the game, and the rest people follow them.

: take an average single guy dating two women equal in every way except one has a kid from another man. who is this guy gonna choose for a relationship?

Using such an example you can prove that you will never have a chance to meet a women until you earn 100K/year:

“take an average single woman dating two guys like you, except the second one makes 100K/year. who is this girl gonna choose for a relationship?”

The main problem with your example is that there is just NO two single woman equal in every way. Every woman, every man is different. Everyone has his/her good and bad points. It is typical for younger people to look for someone “just a little more perfect” than what they have. Like “my girl is nice, drama-free and caring, only if it looks better!” Know what? If she looks better, there is a big chance she wouldn’t be his girlfriend at all unless he looks better himself!

: narrowing the criteria, who is he gonna choose to fuck around with? kids are a notorious buzzkill.

I have chosen it. I know a lot of men who have married divorced women with kids. Looks like someone just needs to grow up – there is really no difference raising your own child, or someone else’s; if everything works fine, you’ll have more kids anyway.

: yes, we all know of exceptions to the rules. there are guys who like to fuck fatties. but i wouldn’t start advising women to grow three chins if they want to improve their love lives.

Even in this case, when you are looking for a relationship, physical appearance is not that important. Even if you marry a miss World, the initial lust based on sex appeal will wear off in following 3-6 months. For a good relationship it is much more important to have it with the “right” (for you, of course) person. I’d choose a calm, nice fatty over a very beautiful bitch anytime for a relationship.

: do you think if i were 14 the truth of what i say would change?

Actually I think you’re around 19-23. And – sorry for disappointing you – what you are saying is just your opinion, and far from truth.

: why do adoptees search out their biological parents?

Most adoptees (adopted before 1 year) do not even know they were adopted. Those who do, and those who search, are just curious.

: anyhow, we are talking about the interests of the man, not the child.

We are talking about the interest of everyone involved in relationship. If you think you could have a good and stable relationship, caring only or mostly about your own interests – you will fail.

: did you know that stepdads are more likely to sexually abuse their stepdaughters than biological dads are to abuse their real daughters?

No, I don’t know that. And you do not _know_ that too, by the way. You just read/heard about it somewhere. Please try to see a difference between things you _know_ and things someone else said because it was his/her _opinion_.

: contraception wasn’t nearly as widely available or effective then as it has been since about 40 years ago.

The easiest methods of contraception were available as soon as people knew about the role of semen and menstrual cycles. Both of them were available for EVERYONE, and were free, by the way. The only major problem at that time was religion – but the religion still objects using contraception anyway.

: probably older than you think.

Just another useless quote. Not only you assume what I think, but you also assume you might be wrong (so the word “probably”). Is it so hard to reply with a number? For the record, I’m 33.

: there are many that have seen so much… and learned so little.

That’s true; even having been in 3-4 relationships which last more than a year still does not guarantee that the person learned from them. However if the person hasn’t even been in such a relationship, I can one hundreed percent tell you that he/she has no clue talking about such relationships at all.

: even better, she should skip on popping out the tot until she’s good and ready to settle down for the long haul.

When she marries someone, it is assumed that she is already settled down for a long haul. Again, the divorce rate for the first marriage is 50%, which means that you have 50% chance of success – which is not really bad.

: the alphas will be too busy fucking the girls who don’t have to leave dates early to pay the babysitter.

So what? Alphas just fuck girls, they do not pay for their babysitters. But it doesn’t really matter – there are only few alphas around, and they do not make good relationship partners.

there was a study done where women and men looked at photos of 100 random age-appropriate members of the opposite sex and were asked how many of them they found sexually desirable. men found 80% of the women attractive while women found only 20% of the men attractive.
the study confirmed that women are the choosier sex, but it also suggested that # of potential alpha males hovers around 20% of the population.

“mixes themselves pretty well (interracial marriages etc)”

not really. most people still assortatively mate and marry someone like themselves. in fact, thanks to mass immigrant-driven balkanization, the latest general social survey shows interracial marriage is down in the past 5 years.

“the main role of alphas”

the main role of alphas is the same as the main role of betas — to survive and replicate.

“alpha could not last long in a stable and faithful relationship”

this depends. while it’s generally true that an alpha male good with women will play the field more because he won’t experience the morale-deflating sting of rejection as much, once he captures the heart of an amazingly beautiful woman equal to him in sexual market value he’ll be more likely to commit.
at least for longer than a few lays.

“Alphas do not play games.”

everyone plays games.
since game-playing is an intrinsic part of the alpha’s character, he can afford to scoff at those whose learning curves are steeper.
but he is as much a slave to the cosmic forces as anyone.

““No man” sounds very immature.”

ceteris paribus.
take an average single guy dating two women equal in every way except one has a kid from another man.
who is this guy gonna choose for a relationship?
narrowing the criteria, who is he gonna choose to fuck around with? kids are a notorious buzzkill.
yes, we all know of exceptions to the rules. there are guys who like to fuck fatties. but i wouldn’t start advising women to grow three chins if they want to improve their love lives.

“How old are you?”

do you think if i were 14 the truth of what i say would change?

“For a child the real father is not the one who fucked her mother.”

why do adoptees search out their biological parents?
the pull of genetic kinship is not to be trifled with.
anyhow, we are talking about the interests of the man, not the child.

“The father is the one who spent his precious resources raising this child.”

did you know that stepdads are more likely to sexually abuse their stepdaughters than biological dads are to abuse their real daughters?

“Even the Ancient Egyptians knew about contraception.”

contraception wasn’t nearly as widely available or effective then as it has been since about 40 years ago.

“Also the pill is not perfect”

no, but it’s damn close. and in the big picture, it’s the averages that matter.

“They would rather marry a ug than marry a hot single mom.”

for the record, i don’t agree with this.
a hot mom with a kid beats a childless UG any day.
but then, those are not usually the choices we are presented with.

“how old are you”

probably older than you think.

“how many long (more than 6 months) serious relationships have you been?”

there are many that have seen so much… and learned so little.

“However she’ll still be in good shape, with a kid,”

even better, she should skip on popping out the tot until she’s good and ready to settle down for the long haul.
if she can’t manage that, she’s gonna have to get used to the dregs that’ll start washing ashore. the alphas will be too busy fucking the girls who don’t have to leave dates early to pay the babysitter.

best.

First, a small introduction about alpha males. The role and population of alphas has been studied; they vary from 5 to 10 percent in animal world, however in human world their numbers are less than 5 percents – and declining. The main theory is that human race mixes themselves pretty well (interracial marriages etc), and therefore the main role of alphas – mixing genes – is not actual anymore.

Second, alphas in relationship. By definition, alpha could not last long in a stable and faithful relationship. It’s against his nature. He may simulate it for a while, but the end is always the same – the relationship is broken. Again, I’m talking about true alphas, not betas who consider themselves alpha because they play games.

Third, much less pleasant for you guys. Most of you talking about loser betas who cannot play games – are betas themselves. Alphas do not play games. They do not learn games, and do not improve them. If you ask a typical alpha how he picks up women, his reply would be – just be yourself. Alpha does not need to learn games. If you do – you are not alpha. That’s not bad; there is nothing wrong being beta, and they are more useful for survival of human species. Just a note.

Now we’re ready to talk:

: this is basic human psychology 101. no man wants to spend his precious resources (time, money, love) raising another man’s child.

“No man” sounds very immature. Every person is different, and if something is not an option for you, it doesn’t mean it is not an option for everyone else. How old are you?

The whole quote is absurd. For a child the real father is not the one who fucked her mother. The father is the one who spent his precious resources raising this child. Not to mention that we’re not in China; you can have more children if you want to. A lot of people adopt children, even from other countries. If your resources are so limited that you cannot spend them on children, you probably need some changes in your lifestyle.

: with the introduction of the pill, women have become less careful about sleeping around because they can now afford to.

Even the Ancient Egyptians knew about contraception. The introduction of the pill just made it simpler. Most reasonable women, however, still use condoms – the pill does not protect you from STDs. Also the pill is not perfect – my wife just got pregnant being on pill.

: Roissy I agree with you 100%. Single men will never marry single moms as long as they have other options.

Yeah, I thought like that when I was 19. Looks like someone needs to grow up, and stop using words like “never” in regard to relationships.

: They would rather marry a ug than marry a hot single mom. That’s just my 2 cents.

Could I ask you how many single men have you asked? Are you sure you are not projecting your own (very limited, I’d say) world view on everyone else?
Same question as to Roissy – how old are you, and in how many long (more than 6 months) serious relationships have you been? This is important; it is perfectly ok to think like that in your early 20th. But if you’re close to your thirties, it is very strange.

And, as a final note – my theory is different. The girl should get married early (20-22 is probably the best), and spend at least 2-3 years in marriage. She’ll get divorced with around 50% probability (current divorce rate in US). However she’ll still be in good shape, with a kid, and has much better chance in future relationships – as the divorce rate for the 2nd marriage is around 9%. She therefore has much better chance to get a life-long stable relationship than a person who first got married in 35, and hit the same divorce rate.

Women, you have to be really careful who you marry and whose baby you have. Your mom’s right, the bad boys and the alpha’s, they just gonna screw you and move on, that’s how it is. It’s not them it’s the genes. Be open-minded to betas, they may turn out to be wonderful lovers and father if you give them a chance.

with the introduction of the pill, women have become less careful about sleeping around because they can now afford to. this freedom to fuck around coupled with women’s increased earning power has been bad news for the niceguy provider males and a boon for the badboy players. the trend will only accelerate as men get wise to the shifting sexual dynamics. exhibit a: 60% of college students are now women. men are dropping out and foreclosing on long-term planning in favor of short term game.

And keep visiting my blog. Just started. I’m sure one of these days I’ll say something prolific.

P.S. your blog rocks.