Thoughts On The Balance Beween Caring For A Girl and Being Completely Apathetic

As much as I hate to admit it, my happiness is still tied to the responses I get from women. I have been unable to achieve a complete Buddhist-like state when it comes to game, and my states remain affected by them.

If I approach a cute new girl and get her number, say in a tough day-time approach, I am pleased and pat myself on the back, thinking of my little success for the next couple hours. If I then fuck her, I’m in positive spirits for at least a day. If a new girl I thought was a lock flakes on me at some point in the seduction I get annoyed and experience a bad or neutral mood for hours. If I don’t get the bang when I’ve done everything in my power to do so, I’m frustrated.

It’s happened where a girl didn’t reply to my phone call, and I scratch my hand wondering why, only for her to finally respond and my mood to immediately lift. I want to get away from this completely, of reacting emotionally to responses a woman gives me, but I know that’s asking myself to remove a part that makes me human. While I worry less about outcomes with specific women than the average man, there is obviously a part of me that cares, mostly for my own success and sense of accomplishment.

Garden-variety apathy is a common attribute of those men who rack up lots of bangs, but I want complete robot-like apathy when it comes to the initial stages of pick-up because I know that emotions such as the ones I experience only hinder my maximum potential. The time I’m feeling down will lead to missed opportunities because I won’t be “in the mood.” The times I’m feeling up does the same because of the “I just got laid—I don’t need to try” mindset, also called Golden Cock Syndrome.

There is a negative to robot-like apathy, because to not care is to lack desire. Unfortunately at zero desire you’ll be prevented from playing the game at all and attemping anything, as you can reason that women are not needed for your existence in the first place. This is a tough point to reconcile, and it’s entirely possible that my current mindset, of caring a little, is actually most optimal.

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  • Mike

    Right — if you achieved a complete and Buddhist-like detachment from your desires, would you be pursuing women at all? You don’t see monks out there getting notches.

    I think the Buddhist ideal is not to achieve a complete *lack* of desire, which is impossible, but only to withhold from following through on desire when appropriate.

  • leena

    If you wouldnt find enjoyment by your interaction with women…. what would be the point?

  • Billy

    Hey Roosh, I think it would do you good to read some of Eckhart Tolles work. When you’ve built an identity on chasing chicks it’s very hard not to be affected by rejection or success. You say “it is not human” to let go of emotional reactions, but really, what constitutes ‘human’?

    Could it be that the current definition builds on a misinterpretation? Maybe being not so human, is good after all?

  • Unemployed Roosh Fan

    do you ever see yourself caring so much that you’d want a relationship?

  • Fortaleza-guy

    “and it’s entirely possible that my current mindset, of caring a little, is actually most optimal.”

    You got that right!

  • http://alliemarien.wordpress.com/ alliemarien

    i find how i feel about myself is a reflection of how others treat me…shallow but true

    alliemarien’s last blog post: Orange Chile Glazed Chicken.

  • http://www.yohami.com yohami

    Hey bro. Pulling value from the interactions. Thats a dangerous negative crap carousel.

    The RSD Blueprint and this guy… dr paul, his mindOS helped me a LOT to understand the basics of value giving and taking, have you checked them out?

    If you feel like a diamond (because, well, you are) and make yourself all sorts of happy, facing the crap inside of you and turning blah blah that makes you THE man. The girls come to you, even with no game, and you get away with anyhing.

  • Riker

    alliemarien maybe how others treat you is a reflection of how you feel about yourself

  • http://www.easycomings.com bez

    If you’re looking into Buddhism, you should also check out Taoism, it’s a pretty interesting “philosophy” as well.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism

    According to the Wikipedia article:
    “Compared to a traditional Western perspective, the Taoist view of sexuality is considerably more at ease. The body is not viewed as a dangerous source of evil temptation, but rather as a positive asset. Taoism rejects Western mind-body dualism; mind and body are not set in contrast or opposition with each other. Sex is treated as a vital component to romantic love; however, Taoism emphasizes the need for self-control and moderation. Complete abstinence is frequently treated as equally dangerous as excessive sexual indulgence. The sexual vitality of men is portrayed as limited, while the sexual energy of women is viewed as boundless. Men are encouraged to control ejaculation to preserve this vital energy. Male Taoist sexual practices focus on cultivating the ability to reach orgasm without ejaculating, enabling a man to have multiple orgasms without loss of sexual vitality. Women are encouraged to reach orgasm without restriction. Taoists believe that a man may increase and nourish his own vitality by bringing a woman to orgasm, thereby “activating” her energy and attuning it with himself. This is considered to be of benefit to both partners.[42]”

    There are other interesting and useful aspects of Taoism.

    Check this out as well, if you’re interested:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Te_Ching

    bez’s last blog post: The Most Interesting Man In The World.

  • http://www.thegmanifesto.com The G Manifesto

    I thought this was pretty funny.

    - MPM

    The G Manifesto’s last blog post: Wale’s first studio album, Attention Deficit out now.

  • Roosh

    “I think the Buddhist ideal is not to achieve a complete *lack* of desire, which is impossible, but only to withhold from following through on desire when appropriate”

    Link? I don’t think you are correct here.

    4: No. I guess if you care too much you’ll be a needy guy who craves relationships.

    7: What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I’ve ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  • Where to draw the line…..

    My question is where do you cut your losses and/or keep it on the back burner. My current situation is not so much the flaking or rejections as much as letting the first or second rejection slide. The frist contact after getting the number ‘No response to call or text’, she flakes even though it was going when I got the number. So you wait a week or so and trying again with the same girl. Is it pointless? The flake stings sometimes but then when I try for a second time, that’s when I really get a little pissed at myself for falling for a second rejection or at her for being two faced. I don’t do this repetition thing with most girls, only ones I feel a worth it or a safe bet. But also I don’t want to come off needy or despreate after the first flake/rejection. I mean, I got to give her a second chance if she is worth it, right? Even if that mean déjà vu worth of pissed of. I am slowly getting better at letting it slide.Kind of like thing dumbass: http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1919845

  • The Rookie

    After reading your latest book, particularly the last part, I think caring at least a little is good, especially if you meet someone who you want more than anyone else.

  • Lovechild

    Dude! you’re in danger of becoming Ambivalent which is not good and it’s not being unattached because you’re losing awareness of yourself, her and your environment! I know that feeling, I hate that feeling.

    Here the most golden nugget i’ve learned about attrachment is from Jesuit Priest named Anthony De Mello:

    “Attachment is WRONG THINKING and a FALSE BELIEF that WITHOUT that CERTAIN PERSON or CERTAIN THING i would NEVER BE HAPPY!”

    Let that be sipped, savored, simmer in your mind like a good red wine…

    Don’t let her or materials things be the source of your happiness or enlightenment. You already have it! It’s just you haven’t CONSCIOUSLY REALIZED IT!

    Just that knowledge is completely liberating.
    Just NOT TO CARE ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE THINK!
    NOT in a RUDE WAY! NOR in a HARMFUL WAY!
    Just to BE INDEPENDENT, AUTONOMOUS, FREE and AWARE!
    Just to BE YOURSELF!

    Anyone would do anything to get that including me.

    Here’s to Awareness!

    Links on Anthony De Mello:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDXSQUph2Jk
    http://awareness.tk/

    P.S.
    Eckhart Tolle SUCKS!

  • http://thedatingcroniclesoftylerd.blogspot.com/ Tyler

    Today I was driving around the back road of northern NY. I was looking for my hotel but I kept getting on these damn little highways and I didn’t know where I was. I was mad as fuck. I wanted to punch my stereo in to be frank with you.

    I drove by 4 little gas stations because I didn’t feel like dealing with some dumb guy behind the desk and ask for directions. Then I drove by this chiropractor’s office. I saw a few girls behind the front desk, so I pulled in there. I was really pissed off, and I went in and asked for directions. 3 little hotties all came around the front desk to try and help me find where I was going. I told them how mad I was getting, driving around in there little town and then we just started talking. I spent a little time telling them some stories, etc…I was no longer mad. 3 cute girls changed my mood in 2 minutes.

    You may not have the ability to completely detach yourself from having some sort of a response from a woman….but I think you have the ability to respond more the the positive actions of women and detach yourself enough from the negative to make it most beneficial.

    Tyler’s last blog post: Groundhog Day.

  • http://www.districtramblings.wordpress.com Laura

    “as you can reason that women are not needed for your existence in the first place.”

    … is that a joke? who could ever “reason” that? no one would exist without women, especially not you. Vaginas are the cradles of civilization.

    Laura’s last blog post: China, We Have a Problem..

  • Evan

    According to Vipassana principles of Buddhism, chasing women is not compatible with achieving enlightenment/an end to craving, desire and aversion (i.e. suffering).

    I think this translates into how you are affected (or not affected) by troughs and crests in the process of chasing women. By chasing women, you resign yourself to riding the highs and lows of the game, to the disappointment of failure (aversion) and the false happiness (craving) of temporary success.

    If you cease to crave the crests and abhor the troughs, you’ll be removed from the process of desiring women and then getting them/failing to get them. I don’t think it works that way.

    Does that even make sense? lol

  • slumlord

    It’s actually a very deep post, worthy of Augustine.

    I think your ability to feel pain is what makes you human. The Zen like state that your hoping to achieve is type of state that perhaps an SS soldier wanted, the ability to kill without remorse, or to feel the pain of his victims. Yeah, you’d become the perfect killing machine, but you wouldn’t be human anymore.

    Buddhism is not the answer, its answer to the man who is troubled by porn, is to gouge his eyes out: Once again, an anti-human answer. Nirvana is achieved when all desire is extinguished; in the end you don’t give a shit about anything. It explains a lot about Asia’s cultural inertia, and how the big ideas will be coming out of the West for a long, long time to come.

    The proper answer of course is to both want the prize(that way you stay hungry) and to mourn its loss if you fail to get it.(which is the proper way to feel when you loose something you want).
    This of course is how normal humans react. The way to play the game then is just to take it on the chin and move on. There is always going to be pain when you play your game, especially if the girl is quality.

    But this is not how it plays out in real life. The player’s response to pain avoidance is prize devaluation; less value, less pain. This is partially due to the fact that a lot of women are worthless and partly due to the fact that you cognitively habituate (stereotype) them as worthless. In the end they don’t matter at all.
    You become disgusted at what you wanted so desperately in the beginning. All women become worthless, and the perfect woman will always elude your grasp.

    The cognitive effect is the opposite of Buddhism. Here the desire remains, but the object of its satiation disappears.

    Be careful of what you wish for.

  • http://alliemarien.wordpress.com/ alliemarien

    riker – before i would have agreed with your statement. but i went through a period where i got little attention from others as a result of being a shut-in…after a few months in the real world i got my confidence back.

    alliemarien’s last blog post: Roasted Broccoli and Sugar Snap Peas.

  • Chris

    Laura said: “Vaginas are the cradles of civilization.”

    I like this girl. But then again, I’m a simple guy.

    Anyway, forget all this pop-Buddhism. I understand Zen fairly well, it generally being rather difficult and misunderstood, and it DOES NOT mean that you “let go of attachment” or other bullshit like that. Although, other forms of Buddhism preach this, I find Zen to be far superior. In fact, it is much more in line with the Fight Club philosophy of engaging your life and not living through semantic illusions of who you are or how you are meant to behave. In some ways, it is the deep philosophy of that movie without the political bent. A more accurate quip to convey what Zen is, is “do what you feel”. This is the antithesis of suppressing desire or your emotions.

    I suggest you first read “Quantum Psychology” by Robert Anton Wilson, and then “Zen” by Alan Watts. The first isn’t about Zen, but is necessary to fully understand parts of what Watts, and Zen, is saying. Both books warrant at least two readings, over time, to fully integrate, but they are both worth it. I find them essential to having learned how to think about anything. Neither will specifically help your game, other than giving you the freedom to be yourself and think independently. However, these books are essentially the end game for all Buddhism/Zen/spiritual philosophy books, in my opinion. Read these two books, and understand them, and you will also understand Zen well. At least insofar as the English Language has the ability to convey it.

    As for the relevance to game, its difficult to beat the effect of biology on our psyche. Guys who get regular sex send the right emotional messages, and guys who do not get a lot of sex send the wrong social/emotional messages. Thats the root of the problem, and its hard wired into our psychobiology. There is no way to “cure” this problem at its root, without having lots of sex with lots of women. The design of the low sex males’ emotional/social communication impulse is such that women will find guys who are less successful with women in general, less attractive. Therefore, the more successful and attractive genes will make it further in the gene pool.

    Everything else, whether it be Buddhist philosophy or other pscho-behavioral tricks on her or you, are just band-aids to disguise the true root. Essentially, you have to try to fool yourself, or fool her, that you are actually one of those guys getting regular sex. The “go numb to attachment” “buddhist” approach works to an extent, but is more of an emotional anesthetic designed to suppress the desire to communicate the wrong emotional message. Therefore, i think its use is limited, especially in building attraction. While girls may be intrigued that you aren’t acting needy, because you are suppressing desire, guys generally come off as too aloof and no sexual attraction is built in “normal” girls who don’t need the whole world to want them. Instead, you get the broken girls who respond best to be ignored. While the practice of going emotionally numb can be a helpful tool, using only it won’t get you the best results.

    Here’s the solution that I have found works best with me. A guy who isn’t getting a lot of sex has to mimic the behavior of a guy that is. The feedback loop is such that girls will respond to you like you are one of those guys, you will get more sex, and then you will actually be one of those guys and it won’t be pretend anymore. In my situation, I have found this behavioral feedback loop to happen exactly as described. While I’m continuously learning and getting better at it, it is getting easier as I learn more and go along. There is no continuous struggle with telling the right jokes/stories/progression etc.. ad nauseum. I don’t have to talk much at all, if I don’t choose to do so. I often don’t. Its not how much I talk, but what I say when I do talk. Make sense?

    I simply am very sexual with them upfront, that is I let them know what I’m about, without caring about their response. I’m lighthearted and fun about it, but not joking. I then change my attention to something else without waiting for their response. I really don’t care! Why? Because I’m like this with EVERY girl. I’m not picking her out as special, necessarily, and I’m constantly expressing my desire to every attractive girl that I can, and even some unattractive ones(makes their day and shows that I really am just out to have fun and make women feel good, which I am). This makes you a very sexual being to all girls. While some girls don’t know how to take it initially, and won’t immediately respond, you plant this seed in their brain and it grows. You will get phone calls and random hookups from girls who you hit on months ago. You begin to build a pipeline and get regular sex. And the best part is, your behavior doesn’t change when this happens because you were acting like a regular sex guy naturally acts from the beginning. No more unnatural aloofness, monk like detachment, or trying to talk your way into her pants with charming stories and other bullshit. Of course, having a personality always helps, but is the least necessary part of the interaction. Go caveman, this is what this behavior is about. Also, it helps to hang out with a natural or two who has always acted like this. Every single natural that I have ever known takes the aforementioned approach. You will also have an advantage over them in that most naturals are bad at being introspective and sensitive, and acting like a direct caveman most of the time, combined with the occassional sensitive moment, is like a neutron bomb on a girls emotions. She’ll be on her way to falling in love with you if you have the bedroom skills to match.,

    As for ever completely suppressing your emotional angst and elation sourced from female behavior? Not ever going to happen until you are getting all the sex that you want and need. Its just not, and it would be unnatural. You aren’t superhuman. You just have to act the part until your natural emotions are close to congruent with being non-needy and uber-sexual behavior.

  • Chris

    By the way, this doesn’t mean that you are “running the full court press” at every possible moment. You only need to spice your interaction with sparse comments expressing your desire and sexuality. This is more than enough, as most guys will never do this. But you have to do it within the first half hour that you meet her. The sooner the better. Just be normal the rest of the time. Like I said, you don’t need to do anything else that special. And of course, beyond my own unique learning curve, I’m not the originator of this approach. I won’t plug here, but I don’t want to imply that I’m some type of innovator either.

  • Lovechild

    Kickass comment Chris!!!

    My only complaint that it too long…for short-attention span dork like me! hehehe!

    I’m somewhat familiar with Robert Anton Wilson “Quantum Psychology” and Allan Watts “Zen” but i never got around it (meaning finish it). Although i’ve listened to a lot of lectures of Allan Watts and really liked it! He’s like the coolest spiritual philopsy professor i’ve never had.

    I almost label your feedback loop as an advanced form of “Fake Till You Make it” crap. Thank goodness I’ve finished reading your last two paragraphs of your comment because…I WAS WRONG!

    YOU’VE CRACKED IT MAN! YOU’RE A NATURAL!
    Your style is like in between Mode One, Juggler Method and Zan Perrion’s Style.

    The most importand thing i’ve leared in Mode One and Juggler Method is SHOWING YOUR SEXUAL INTEREST and STATING YOUR SEXUAL INTENT though not in a crass way but in an INTELLIGENT WAY! That’s one of the most major sticking points of most man including me besides Approach Anxiety.

    Well Zan Perrion Style is like Direct but the emphasis is more on connecting and relating with her kinda like Juggler Method only he doesn’t have method but he has a philosophy, principles and a certain outlook on life that makes him attractive to ladies besides his looks.

    Your last two comments (including extra one) is FUCKING GOLD!

    I get it man! I should take some notes but i don’t need to…plus the NEWBIES are the ones that SHOULD TAKE NOTES ON THIS!

    All in All those last two paragraphs in your comments is how naturals do it!

    HERE’S TO NATURALS and TO YOUR KICKASS NATURAL STYLE! CHEERS! :cool:

  • http://shobogenzo-misinterpreted.blogspot.com Thomas Amundsen

    >>”“I think the Buddhist ideal is not to achieve a >>complete *lack* of desire, which is impossible, >>but only to withhold from following through on >>desire when appropriate”
    >>
    >>Link? I don’t think you are correct here.”

    Hi Roosh,

    This is in fact, fairly accurate as far as the Theravada tradition is concerned. Check out – http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda05.htm

    “This process of dying and being reborn will continue until the conditions that cause it, craving and ignorance, cease. When they do, instead of being reborn, the mind attains a state called Nirvana and this is the ultimate goal of Buddhism and the purpose of life.”

    However, in the Mahayana traditions, the goal is not complete detachment. In Mahayana, Buddhists are taught to become attached to all sentient beings, in order to help others achieve liberation as well.

    In either case, Buddhist monks of ALL traditions take vows of celibacy, at least on paper. So, it’s pretty clear that those who are really serious about the practice try to minimize that attachment.

    Thomas Amundsen’s last blog post: Bendowa.

  • Anonymous

    Roosh, you should be a soul-sucking lawyer. You’re pretty good at arguing with yourself.

  • 33

    the issue of caring about girls or not caring
    Is rather simple.
    most cases i have witnessed.

    Woman love attention..The most important part is to control that Attention Give it and then take it away.
    The most powerful weapon a Man has over women is attention.

    Women love our attention..everything a woman Does is to attract a man’s attention and INFACT WHEN WOMEN COMPETE WITH EACH OTHER its actually for the male’s attention.
    They claim that women compete with each other for no reason.
    Truth is women hate each other for taking the male attention away.
    GIRLS would hate life if all men never looked at them or ever wanted them.
    They feel lonely without the male “attention”

    for a Girl …attention is equal to sex
    woman are not turned on by sex and its not that important for them unless they want “babies”

    for men naturally we seek “sex”
    woman Seek as much attention from men so that they may pick the strongest male or “leader” among them.

    Hence naturally its important for a women they gain as much male attention..woman that steal that attention are “enemies” and men that dont give it are a contest or a struggle or worth it
    she suddenly feels beneath him or not his equal

    Forexample a Billionaire guy with 1000 hot girls would not look at average girl and give her his attention “nor would she expect it”

    when a girl feels the value of a man’s attention he gets everything he wishes.

    Always guard your attention and never make it feel free.
    give it away alot on one day ..and withdraw it suddenly so she feels the value of the good times you gave.
    make it feel shaky…hence after a big argument or anger.. women feel more love after a fight
    because they sense suddenly big CHANCE for the attention to move elsewhere
    Women hate it when men give other things attention

    women want a leader
    TO gain strong and Good “to her” male ..they need to gain as much attention as possible from all males

  • sanjay

    after a lot of pretty crap things going on, am at that zero point of apathy roosh. discoveries, you still need to care a little to approach. at the moment i’m indifferent to everybody. suggestions?

  • Pingback: Is this normal, or an inner game issue?

  • Scandalover

    Man, is there confusion here.

    Buddhism is NOT about extinguishing desire.

    It’s about not being driven by or fixated on our desires, having the choice to let them be present but not HAVE to act on them.

    Having a complete experience of desire, hate, anger etc means to bring equanimity, sensory clarity and focus to it.

    Look up: http://www.shinzen.org

  • Name

    I wonder roosh, or anyone else maybe, how do you talk to the girl? as in the “way” you talk to them like you act interested? I dun get that

  • emotional

    That’s how human learn

  • Joe Dick

    very good point. I just don’t give a fuck at all about women. I still want some sex, but I don’t want to interact with them as I find them too crazy and stupid. PS. mine is not fear, I actually approached hardcore for weeks.

    I just came to dislike women. I just don’t see me living with one for more than a few hours, fuck her, and send her back home or wherever the fuck she wants to go. I guess I am at the spectrum you said, Roosh. Sexual desire is there but human desire? I feel absolutely nothing. I have always been a very emotional guy but for women I just don’t feel shit anymore. To me they are just cum buckets.