American Girls Are Using Negs Now

I remember when I’d never get approached by women, even when I went out four nights a week. I accepted that I was not a good-looking guy whose looks alone could propel a woman to start chasing. I didn’t cry about it since I was still able to get laid by approaching, but it did gnaw at me that other guys had to put far less effort than I had to.

Then slowly, as I optimized my look and improved my body language, posture, mannerisms, and so on, more girls approached me, or at least gave me steady eye contact. Unfortunately it wasn’t from the girls I wanted (their attractiveness was in the 4-6 range), but I welcomed the attention anyway. Their approaches were usually very simple, along the lines of asking a question about the bar or making a compliment about something I was wearing.

These days, the quality of girls who approach me has jumped up a bit to the 5-7 range, with the once-in-a-blue-moon 8, yet it’s still not frequent enough or at a consistent quality that I can stop approaching myself. In the past two years I’ve noticed another change: American women have started using negs on me. Of course no one knows how to really use negs, so they just come across as insults. Here are some recent examples:

“Did you just come from an ugly sweater party?” (I wasn’t wearing what I thought to be an ugly sweater.)

“I want the chair you’re sitting on.”

“Why are you wearing my dad’s tie clip?”

Sometimes the girl is not using the neg as an opener, but as a failed attempt at teasing early in the interaction. They make fun of my hairy arms or my retro flower shirt or whatever else I’m wearing without using a scrap of charm or humor. We’re talking straight-up insults.

When this happens, I look at the girl and say, “Does that pick-up line usually work? Because it sucks.”

“Uh, uh, it’s not a pick up line! You wish it was!”

Reverse the genders. That little dialogue sounds familiar, doesn’t it? We’ve come full circle my friends.

Now allow me to trace the history of girls using negs:

1. The Game was released, teaching guys to go around insulting girls. Negs were the main principle of the book mentioned in dozens of articles and television reports. Unfortunately they don’t work like newbies thought they would. Maybe it did work at some point on a certain type of girl that Mystery approached, but it doesn’t any more. Negs are like punching a girl in the face and saying “it works” just because you got a reaction. Truth is playful teasing remains king in building attraction at night.

2. American girls, who have become increasingly clueless on how to flirt, learned about the neg concept via the media and figured it would be suitable to use on guys. Girls are stupid in that they think there are no gender-specific rules or techniques. Believe it or not, they still think us guys judge them based on things like their career and stability.

The men have no idea how to act like men and the women have no idea how to act like women. They learn mistakes from each other, and neither get what they want as the culture slowly loses knowledge of how to efficiently mate with the opposite sex without copious amounts of alochol. It’s sad if it wasn’t so amusing.

It’s 2011 and everyone is trying to use negs. The neg is officially dead.

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Tim
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Tim
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It’s true that chicks still think guys judge them on many other things than looks. However, i do see assertiveness in females being repetively rewarded because many guys simply don’t have the balls and willpower to frequently approach themselves. Negs may be a way for females to display this assertiveness.

Also, fortunately the neg is far from dead in my country (the netherlands, i love how a chick rejects or ignores tons of guystrying to be sweet, after which i can easily capture her attention with a quick neg.

Snoeperd
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Bullshit, the neg isnt dead, how else are you gonna show that you arent affected by her presumed higher value. You do however have to disguise them more effectively, not punch ‘m in the face with it.

Like: “I like your golden earrings, they’re like the ones i saw in the fresh prince of bell air”.

ps: btw tim, woon je in amsterdam? gr

The G Manifesto
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This is pretty funny stuff.

“The Game was released, teaching guys to go around insulting girls.”

I still think a lot of people overestimate the impact of The Game and pick up artists in general. Sure I have seen some of those characters out and about at night (the ones on the tv shows are the only ones I would recognize) asking girls a bunch of open-ended questions, but only in really weesh venues in West Hollywood or somewhere similar.

Its not like you see guys with muliticolored spiky hair, leather wrist bands and shiny shirts neging people at Les Caves Du Roy Bar in St Tropez, The French Laundry or Cipriani Downtown etc.

“slowly loses knowledge of how to efficiently mate with the opposite sex without copious amounts of alochol”

Don’t forget drugs.

“The neg is officially dead.”

This is kind of like when Nas said, “Hip-Hop is Dead”

Snoeperd,

“how else are you gonna show that you arent affected by her presumed higher value”

By having true confidence in yourself. If you think she has “presumed higher value” than yourself you are already down on the score cards and cut before the fight begins.

Roy Battie
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I had a roommate several years ago who read and swore by “The Rules”. In hindsight i remember that she never gave compliments about your looks, and basically used “negs” (about looks/clothes) on a steady basis.

The Rookie
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I think most guys would be happy to be insulted, just for the interaction alone. That allows girls to full neg ahead.

Tyler
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Tyler
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I quickly realized that negging never seemed to help any interaction. It’s a delicate thing anyways, and I see most guys flat out insulting girls. A little wit and charm got me much more than making fun of a girl’s earrings.

T. AKA Ricky Raw
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I do agree that American women neg more than ever. I disagree as to the reason. I don’t think that many of them know about the Game or anything, I just think they’re becoming more obnoxious and narcissistic people in general, and that just happens to be one more side effect. i think the fact it resembles negs is just coincidental. They’re just being their naturally obnoxious selves because they’re brats. If you ever interact with bratty kids, they do the same thing.

FretDancer
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I always welcome a neg (or neg attempt) from a girl. It’s always funny, wether they know how to apply one or not, which is going to vary on the response she gets.

I don’t think I’ve had much problems using negs, it’s all about practice, timing and tone and a little of kino.

I’ve been seing this Mystery guy mentioned alot these past days, who is he?

Willy Wonka
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At least we still have the copious amounts of alcohol to get us by….

Assanova
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Assanova
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As long as there are assholes and women who are complete bitches, the neg will exist. The only difference is that assholes and women who are complete bitches are able to execute it in a much more congruent fashion, and they don’t always usually use it as an opener.

The G Manifesto
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T. AKA Ricky Raw,

“I don’t think that many of them know about the Game or anything, I just think they’re becoming more obnoxious and narcissistic people in general, and that just happens to be one more side effect. i think the fact it resembles negs is just coincidental.”

I think you are dead on. I think it is coincidence.

“Negs” as people call them have been around forever.

Girls don’t use negs because they read some semi-obscure book about a guy who shaved his head and another who wore fuzzy goggles.

American Girls use them because they don’t know how to communicate (except by texting) and don’t have any parents or rolemodels (media or otherwise) that teach them poise and grace.

– MPM

Tuthmosis
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I’ve noticed an increase in girl negs myself. Just chalk it up as another masculine trait in the American woman. Women, by and large, are copycats that herd toward whatever trend they perceive 51% of the population doing. No surprise.

But, I don’t think the neg is dead. I think the neg has changed. For one, women are rarely as good as a well-honed player at it. So our new neg is the skillful redirection of their lame insults. Instead of the old shitty Mystery negs (“your nose wrinkles when you smile”) we need to be more backhanded and subtle to be effective. Frankly, this also cuts out a lot of betas from the rolls.

Anonymous44
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I haven’t noticed the use of negs so much, but I have noticed that hot girls are out-right adopting Game. I watch them in action, and I’m amazed. They just take our PUA techniques, and feed them back to us. Coming from a woman, it just isn’t attractive.

I think the girls are copying what worked on THEM, assuming it works in reverse too. A girl gets picked up enough times, say, more than 10 or 20, and she gets a feel for Game.

Anonymous44
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I agree to not punching the girls in the face with negs. I’m surprised by how many sensitive girls I’ve run into who avoid me after a neg. You think you are making a light joke; they take it to heart.

I’ve also noticed, many girls are speaking in a way that makes it hard to get a neg in. They keep their bitch shields in stealth mode. It is like they are expecting the neg, and try to avoid or otherwise disqualify you gently, without leaving any opening for a neg. They try to be so nice, you feel gosh-darn bad about launching an n-bomb at them.

Firepower
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I come not to praise The Neg, but to bury it.

If the neg is indeed dead, then that means many, many years renewal for pua forums teaching ‘new’ pua counter-tactics at field sems..

gringoed
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Good post Roosh. I’m starting to think that the only good thing that “The Game” did was get shy guys approaching.

Negs aren’t necessary, and 90% of the time they do more harm than good. In the rare case that they do help, it’s probably a girl you wouldnt want to be with anyway.

Schwanson
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Schwanson
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hahahahaha!

Sam Spade
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Sam Spade
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The fact is, women were using negs long before men thought of them as part of game. Negs are a way for men to turn the tables on women and elevate status. By definition this means that women had already perfected the practice. Think about it – women inherently know they are in demand in most situations, and feel free to test men with teasing, even insulting, comments. This is nothing new, though I wouldn’t be surprised if women are now more conscious of it than in the past.

Snoepers
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Well roosh has more exp than me with game and value your insight, but dont agree with you here. Negs arent about insulting, its about you judging her, thereby flipping around the standard script of her being the selector. You can use screening but also judging to do thiz.

Squared
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gringoed:

I’m starting to agree based on my own experiences and what I see and hear around me, and I think this line of thought is slowly becoming more popular in the general game community as well. In that sense, success with women is akin to success in telemarketing. 90% of it is purely a numbers game. The rest is fluff.

Paul
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Women using negs is simply a sign of the times my friends. Their false confidence is at a high level which means their use of negs is a false attempt of showing higher value…god this society is so dysfunctional…reverse gender mating is as gross as the huge black tranny’s that roam the french quarter…shit aint right.

Regardless, a woman using a neg on me is laughable at best, but I still must reverse that role, and sometimes the shock value of reversing the roles as Roosh points out is the most appropriate cut down to their feminist ego. Showing the woman who the fuckin man is should be your mantra…not your words. Body language is most important in alpha representation. If she can’t grasp that she’s not a man she isn’t worthy of the ravishing. Period.

Big Snot
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Big Snot
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Ha- an 8 in DC. yeah right

Big Snot
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And is there a whole beer commercial campaign centered on the female neg? Cue commercial… Hot bartender chick: You’re a pussy and your shirt sucks Dude: Looks sad… Music: DA NA NA da nanana NA NA!

Acksiom
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IIRC, Snoepers is technically correct. What most folks here are labeling as “negs” actually aren’t. They’re just put-downs.

Originally, the phrase was “neg hits”, meant in the sense of “inverse openers” — hitting on a girl in a way that communicated the confidence of inherently higher social value, and REGARDLESS of the woman involved, and usually as a replacement for the supplicative behavior of lower AFCness rather than just avoiding it (and thereby showing its NLP roots).

But because of human nature, the attributed meaning quickly devolved to just put-downs, assisted by the fact that put-downs sometime can function as negative hits, by communicating that higher social value.

sugartits
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The more attractive girls are less likely to approach men anyway, point being it’s something that men can’t control and so isn’t a good way to judge ones attractiveness to women. Attractive women are approached so often, any guy may as well give it a try, if you are worried about being like every other guy, than may as well never approach a hot girl at all, because plenty truly have heard it all.

Negs are annoying and charmless. But I have seen many girls fooled into taking insults from men to heart, and it can make them self-conscious so the fellow gets an upper-hand in the interaction. It’s funny there are actually girls who fall for the red-herring that is a feigned lack of sexual interest. Girls who fall for that show that they are inclined to self-doubt, easily taking the opinion of others they barely know about themselves, instead of having a solid sense of self. A man doesn’t hear someone call him some insult and think “umm, maybe they have a point and I am X”, becoming inspired to some cognitive dissoonance regarding his look or character. This is why negs won’t work on men like it will on women.

Playful teasing and flirting are synonymous, it’s classic boy-meets-girl. I think it’s more feminine to flirt other ways, with more flattery and genuine interest in another. Some girls have too much pride or something to just let a man know she is into him, it has to be so, because women have nothing at all to lose from hinting. Why have women driven men into having to fear approaching/rejection, to have to neg and break down walls.

bored
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Roosh, you don’t get it, surprising, considering your blog that introduced me to all this shit.
Neg is not an insult. Proper “neg” is exactly teasing. Same as guys shooting shit with each other. It’s playful status play (pardon) and that’s why it is attractive. And it’s completely unsurprising and telling that it was such an breakthrough concept for the “pickup community” nerdozoids )

Snoeperd
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Just making 1 more post stating that game really does work: I dressed like a highclass nerd (really i look like shit) went to alternative bar where a friend was playing (crappy band, there were about 4 guys for every girl) and still i picked up a chick. It was hilarious to see really, the non-verbal cues; touching my knee, telling me that “i should really come to that couchsurfing party in amsterdam tomorrow”.
She has a boyfriend though, wonder if that’s gonna matter. Gr

Snoeperd
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Ps: i have to say she wasnt that hot though, about a 6-6.5

Good Luck Chuck
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Good Luck Chuck
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I’m surprised to see a guy who writes books about pickup calling the neg “dead”.

I don’t make it a habit of slinging backhanded compliments at women, but I will give you two examples of negs that I used recently, one intentional and one inadvertant.

The first one is a staple neg that I use on ALL women who are in their early 20’s. I’m almost 40, so it is imperative that you disarm a younger chick by re-framing the age difference. My nuke of choice in this situation is doubly effective because it not only reframes the situation but it also puts her in the position of having to qualify herself to you because it is technically a neg.

chick- How old are you anyway?

me- How old are YOU?

chick- I’m twenty THREE!

me- Oh my god! You’re just a BABY! I’m not going to get arrested for talking to you, am I?

chick- Hey! I’m a grown ass woman!

me- Hey check out it out! That girl has toilet paper hanging out of the back of her skirt! (change the subject)

The inadvertent neg that I used a couple of weeks ago came out when a couple of girls that we were out with went to the bar to get us all drinks. My friend and his chick walk away as the other girl orders. Earlier my buddy’s girl was talking about how she has the hookup at that bar.

chick- (to bartender) Can I get 2 Malibu and cokes and 2 vodka tonics?

bartender- 13 dollars hun!

me- (after bartender walks away) That’s quite a deal. I thought Cindy was the one who had the hookup?

chick- (surprised look on her face as she hands me the drink) Uh, we BOTH have the hookup!

me- Cheers!

I Am The Prize
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I Am The Prize
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“I definetly a potential gf by her education and money making abilities.”

Means I definetly JUDGE a potential….

Marco
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Marco
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Ya ya whatever, so how’s Iceland?

Squared
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Snoeperd:”Just making 1 more post stating that game really does work: I dressed like a highclass nerd (really i look like shit) went to alternative bar where a friend was playing (crappy band, there were about 4 guys for every girl) and still i picked up a chick. It was hilarious to see really, the non-verbal cues; touching my knee, telling me that “i should really come to that couchsurfing party in amsterdam tomorrow”.
She has a boyfriend though, wonder if that’s gonna matter.”

On that topic, in a way, your field report is a fine example of the massive exaggeration that’s always been present in the game community. For one, prior to learning about game, I didn’t know the word “chick” could be used to describe an average or even subpar female. I was always under the impression that the word implied that she had to be hot (8+). For two, I’ve never used the words “pickup” or “success” or what have you to describe an interaction with a chick/average female that DOESN’T end with my dick in at least one of her orifices. If a little kino or phone number exchange is all that is necessary for the “pickup” to be considered “successful”, I guess I must be an ultra pro master PUA. Maybe I should quit my job and write a book.

Anyway, it’d be nice if we could all start speaking the same language. Because looking at it from this vantage point, the number of “chicks” some of these PUAs “pick up” doesn’t seem like that great of a feat afterall.

Tim
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Tim
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Nah, snoeperd, groningen =(

John
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John
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Girl: “I want the chair you’re sitting on.”
Guy: “Hands off the merchandise!”

Sorry, I just had to mention that. anyway, when I first heard about negs I tried it out for fun but it didn’t work. They just felt insulted.

Regardless of the outcome I still think that a neg here and there may be good to cut down sky high egos a bit. Some people need to be taught a lesson once in a while.

Donlak
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I agree Roosh, I have noticed it for a lot longer though, a certain type of girl – attention whores, do it all the time. I didn’t realize it was an attempt at a neg, i just kept assuming girls were stupid and uncouth. Sadly it made me de-value all those hot chicks that were doing it.
So i think you’re right, but negging was only a form of teasing, it’s only one part of being playfull – i think most noobs like you say or pua teaching don’t express this because if you’re a social retard how do explain how to flirt?

These girls are a perfect example of social retardation. They assume we are attracted to the same thing. We aren’t. Using a neg on a guy will put him on the next hot babe in milaseconds.

Workshy Joe
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Isn’t that a shit test? When a girl negs a guy?

Girls have been shit-testing guys since Adam failed Eve’s shit-test with the apple haven’t they?

Still, I agree with the idea that most people (including me) suck at humour, teasing and playfulness so badly that negs come across either as insults or simple disinterest.

Good Luck Chuck
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Good Luck Chuck
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I agree that most guys don’t understand the concept of a neg, but I disagree in what constitutes one. 98% of the time women are the ones qualifying men. Most guys are used to qualifying themselves to women. When you say something that snaps her out of this dynamic (You’re just a BABY!) or something that knocks her down a notch (I thought Cindy was the one who had the hookup?) it could be considered “teasing” but it is also a subtle put down that changes the dynamic to make her qualify herself to you.

Teasing….neg…..it’s all semantics.

Shaman
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Well, they’re not dead, it’s just that a neg isn’t what 99% of people think it is (a neg is NOT any kind of teasing) and 99% of the time someone uses what they think is a neg (it usually isn’t) they’re using it in a situation where they shouldn’t be using negs (actual negs). If she’s not at least an 8, don’t even think about it, and honestly negs were really only ever meant to be reserved for not just 9s and 10s, but DIFFICULT (i.e. cold, snotty, I’m-too-hot-for-you, super-high perceived self-value, super inflated ego) 9s and 10s. If she’s not at least an 8, don’t, if she’s nice/friendly even if she’s a 10, don’t, if you don’t know what a neg is and how to actually use it, don’t. Anyone who wants to really know what they are and how to properly use them need only go back to Mystery’s original stuff (Venutian Arts handbook, the Mystery Method videos he did, etc.) and look, he made it very clear.

Cheers,
Shaman

Anonymous
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Anonymous
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MUHAHAHAHA… in your case, they were not negging you, they were just sincere. Anyway, feck off writing about American bitches, what’s up in Iceland???

Snoeperd
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@Shaman True, i have to read through mystery’s book again some time.

Anyway roosh I remember you making a post about what constitutes a real man, which includes that he must be able to attract women and defend his loved ones using physical strength.

This
http://approachanxiety.com/2011/01/what-not-to-do-on-a-first-date/
might be an interesting example where a guy has the 2nd part but not the 1st one right. Funny watch./

Workshy Joe
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@Shaman: Good point.

Negging is not the same thing as a tease or an insult. Its a negative or questionable compliment.

Classic example: “I like your hair…is that your natural colour?”

OhioStater
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I’ll propose this…women have always negged, but the average guy didn’t know this was going on. Women approached alpha males, negged them, and alpha males recognized this was an acceptable aspect of communication. Pickup artists studying naturals came to this realization thru the back door.

anon
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alright so can someone clariy the difference between a neg and teasing for me? I know the teasing is meant in a playful way and meant to make the girl qualify herself/make herself feel the need to prove herself, and that the neg is a questionable compliment that IMPLIES something negative about the girl, but where does the line between them go. Is it in the tone of voice. I’ve been into game the last year or so but I’m still confused about this difference.

mr t
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mr t
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why is roosh writing about american women?

why no update on his stay in iceland?

T. AKA Ricky Raw
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It’s not that attractive American chicks are looking at The Game and now trying to use pickup artists tools against them by negging. I think that it’s more like hot American chicks always negged and insulted guys they liked because they’re so spoiled and entitled and have a bad superiority complex, plus the average guy never checked them on their bullshit. I think pickup artists developed negs by studying the tools of hot chicks and turning it against them, not the other way around. You just never noticed it before because as you admit, you didn’t get approached by women often, and even when you did at first it was by lower-caliber chick. Now that you have higher-caliber chicks approaching you, you’re seeing the female negging in action that you didn’t before.

Because you have game, you have no tolerance for it, but for the average guy who’s just happy to be approached they’ll gladly tolerate it and play along.

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[…] Roosh – “A Notch is Just a Notch“, “American Girls are Using Negs Now” […]

Workshy Joe
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@anon: If you’re teasing, there has to be “tell”. Something about you that says “I’m not serious”.

But with a neg, you should be deadpan about it. Poker face. Negs are ONLY for overconfident women with industrial-strength bitch shields.

The idea is to draw her out, throw her off balance and keep the conversation going.

Good Luck Chuck
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Joe- That’s a pretty good distinction but I was absolutely serious with both of the two girls I mentioned earlier. I wanted the younger chick to understand that the 17 year age difference should make ME question HER suitability as a mate. Of course it was delivered in an upbeat tone, but nothing about what I said or the way I said it would lead her to believe that I wasn’t serious.

This is absolutely nuclear with younger chicks, BTW. It disqualifies, reframes, and changes the status dynamic all in one short, sweet line.

Good Luck Chuck
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Good Luck Chuck
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I meant to say “A couple of short sweet lines”.

beta_plus
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beta_plus
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I’ve always thought of negs as banter (playful teasing) gone to the extreme – where one rides the line between playful and just cruel. I could see how they might be really important in status obsessed places like northwest LA, but in DC, they just come across as mean.