Direct Game Vs. Indirect Game

It’s easy to get romanced by direct game. Guys read stories about others who’ve succeeded by going direct and believe it’s the path of least resistance from getting no girls to lots of girls. While direct game does have its uses and can work in certain situations, I firmly believe that if you’re a guy who has little natural ability and needs aftermarket game to get laid, you’ll have a higher success rate with indirect game.

Here are a couple direct game openers:

“Hi I noticed you from across the room and you seem like an interesting person. What’s your name?”

“Hi I don’t have a lot of time to talk, unfortunately, but you seem like the type of person I would like to get to know. Do you want meet some other time over coffee?”

For reference purposes, here are two indirect openers:

“Is it okay if I pretend I’m talking to you? There’s this girl over there who won’t leave me alone, so I’m hoping she’ll see me with you and get the hint. Feel free to touch me lightly on the shoulder to make this more believable.”

“Hey do you speak English? What does this word here on the menu mean? I wish I had a dictionary on my phone.”

Direct game doesn’t mean you get mushy, throw out compliments, or buy her drinks. Then that wouldn’t be game. The above direct game examples don’t reference her beauty, and even set up a little challenge that your interest is dependent on her being a cool person, though some other guys do in fact reference beauty in their direct openers.

Many say direct game is “better,” but unfortunately we’re not able to conduct scientific studies to prove either side. Even my conclusions are based only on experience and anecdotal evidence. The main problem I have with direct game is this: it shows your cards right away and forces the girl to make a decision before you build up any value besides your appearance and confidence. That’s not enough for the majority of Western girls. You’re not giving her the time and information she needs to weigh the pros and cons on sleeping with you. Instead, immediately after the opener, you force her to decide right then and there if she wants to get involved. She’ll bow out (“Sorry I have a boyfriend”), or just be nice to you for the flattering attention. Truth is direct game guys get a lot of numbers but have a pitiful close rate.

But let’s say you’re a natural who has been getting laid since you were 15-years-old. Girls gravitate to you and wherever you go you’re getting checked out, probably due to your above-average looks and sexy body language. In that case going direct may be a better option. For some really good-looking guys who have limited conversational skills, going indirect would actually hurt them. They need to quickly get down to business before she realizes there isn’t much substance beneath the surface.

The more value you have, in terms of looks and status, the more direct you can go where you can approach girls saying they’re beautiful and bang that night without problems. But if you’re a random guy off the street who needs to study game to get the girls he wants, chance are you don’t have that initial value where you will be rewarded for your direct opener.

Every now and then I’m at a bar where for whatever reason I’m getting tons of looks or even getting approached outright. On those specific nights, I can go direct with success. On the other hand, if very few girls are checking me out, or the place is packed with dudes, going direct would be a suicide mission unless my target is ugly. If not a lot of girls are peeping you in the club, approach with indirect game, but if you feel like a rock star and think you can have your pick of whichever woman you want, then go direct. Unfortunately this type of scenario will never happen to most of us.

Bottom line: there are girls who will reject your direct game that would have eventually fucked you had you gone indirect. But not the other way around. If you approach a girl indirect that you could have gone direct on, the only difference is that it will take a little longer for the close. Because of this reason alone, it’s simply a good bet to have a default game that is indirect. Direct game is fun to mess around with on the side, but when I’m serious about getting laid I stay indirect. Even in a country like Brazil, where direct game is more rewarded than in the States, I still roll with indirect game unless I’m on a hot streak. For average looking guys, it’s their best option.

Read Next: 7 Things You Can Do To Improve Your Game Right Now

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Vincent Ignatius
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What’s your take on the apocalypse opener? This super direct method seems good if a man has the game to hold his frame and pass the initial shit test that will probably follow.

The reason direct game doesn’t work for most men is because the girl is forced to judge him based on the limited information she has. Only men who are very attractive, have status, etc. will pull with direct game. With indirect game, the average guy has time to build up her perception of his value through interesting stories, humor, etc.

Vincent Ignatius’s last blog post: I Bought Bang.

therealdeal
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I liked your entry until this line :”Bottom line: there are girls who will reject your direct game that would have eventually fucked you had you gone indirect”

what proof do you have to prove that? Yeh some women prefer to wait before they sleep with you (they are less impulsive) I agree with that but I personally don’t believe that you can actively “convince” or “persuade” a women into sleeping with you if she is just not into you.

Furthermore, if you are able to do that, it would take SO MUCH work and would create SO MUCH frustration for the guy. life is short, why waste time on Maybe girls?

I prefer a women to tell me NO straight away, then to say “maybe” and string me along. a guy might be able to “manipulate” a naive women into bed however most attractive women are seasoned manipulators and if a geeky/creepy guy comes in thinking that he’ll get her in bed with his “game” she’ll have him for dinner.

The key components in my opinion in game ARE Looks/appearance/image and Confidence/balls/self-control and not “magic indirect lines”.

Any man in my opinion should strive to improve his looks, appearance, style, physical shape and get some status (i.e. get a career) instead of being lazy and a slob. Furthermore, he should aim to improve his confidence by taking risks (by being direct) and learning to be indifferent to a women’s subjective criticisms and rejection (i.e. not being apologetic, being aloof) that deciding that he can “compensate” by learning “indirect game lines”.

ps: ““Hey do you speak English? What does this word here on the menu mean? I wish I had a dictionary on my phone.”

well, one can go direct after that, the crux of direct game is being upfront and letting the women know that you want to fuck her sometimes in the near future and that you are not hiding that fact. Indirect is trying to get laid by pretending that you don’t want to get laid. so in the end it aint a question of “openers”.

you should check out modeone btw

Stone
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I think you have to weigh your priorities and constraints – for someone like myself (married who only gets to party when out of town/wife out of town) I go mostly direct. No time to invest in going indirect, going on dates before sex, etc. For me, it’s all or nothing.
But before, I used to go indirect more often. I second Roosh that for most guys this works better.

The G Manifesto
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“Bottom line: there are girls who will reject your direct game that would have eventually fucked you had you gone indirect. But not the other way around.”

There are some situations where direct would help more than indirect: situations involving a heavy time factor.

If you have limited time in a place, limited time before a girls boyfriend/father/mother returns, on the street, etc, direct can get you the swoop where indirect will not.

The brutal thing about being direct is you can get swatted alot. This can be brutal, or at least annoying, even for someone who has been swooping mass girls for years.

Generally speaking, indirect works better in more “closed” environments; weddings, house parties, art gallery gigs etc.

Direct is better for the big club.

Street Game and the beach are a mixture of the two.

“Yeh some women prefer to wait before they sleep with you (they are less impulsive) I agree with that but I personally don’t believe that you can actively “convince” or “persuade” a women into sleeping with you if she is just not into you.”

Right. But sometimes it takes a while for quality girls to be into you.

– MPM

The G Manifesto’s last blog post: Fame VS Game in Newport Beach.

George
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The problem with this analysis is that indirect Game does not exactly conceal your intentions – if you’re in a bar and talking to a girl, the default assumption is you’re trying to pick her up. Everyone realizes this off the bat.

That’s what I’ve never understood about proponents of indirect Game – do you really think the girl doesn’t know what you are up to talking to her in a bar just because you don’t directly proposition her?

In this context, with this set of assumptions governing the interaction, it comes off as weak and insecure to not be direct – everyone knows what’s going on, and he doesn’t even have the balls to be open about it. Does not look good to the girl.

If a girl doesn’t like the look of you, for whatever reason, she’ll get rid of you after your first two sentences however indirect your Game is – she’s in a bar, she knows why you’re talking to her. I’ve seen guys get rejected brutally with indirect Game, and it looked so much worse because it was so obvious what they were up to but didn’t even have the balls to be upfront about it.

In a bar or nightclub – perhaps anywhere involving a cold approach – there is no such thing as indirect Game. Doesn’t and cannot exist because of the assumptions governing the interaction. There is only bolder or less bold Game, and to me it seems obvious which is better.

Chris
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Some great follow-up posts. They pretty much cover most of the salient points.

The problem with comparing direct and indirect game is that all indirect game is basically the same in terms of effect. The effect is usually one of two things:

1.She sees you as fun, funny, a good conversationalist, etc, in other words, someone who can entertain her.

2.You play on her insecurities with takeaways, negs, social proof, etc..and make her desire you based on what you can give her other than sex (generally validation). Cash, fame, convenience, etc…can be other motivators for a girl to get with an indirect guy. But the key is “what you can give her other than sex”. Whether you realize this or not, this is the message.

Whether or not she likes you in a sexual way despite your lack of overt sexual behavior, has nothing to do with your efforts. You might be good looking, have a bulge in your pants, be exotic to her, or she might perceive you as ‘cool’ enough to sleep with based on the fact that she doesn’t think that you’ll get needy if she fucks you. But you are doing nothing active to perpetuate sexual attraction in a direct way. Its more than likely her either wanting something, or her connecting the sexual dots on her own that gets her attracted to you. A slow process that may or may not happen.

Usually a mix of techniques, toward these goals, is what constitutes indirect game. Even direct guys, have to fill the space in-between direct comments, use indirect game to fill those spaces. You can’t always be telling her you want to fuck her, or that she’s pretty. Although, some very very good direct guys can. Usually these guys need regular access to these women for that to work. After a while though, space needs to be filled.

Also, indirect game requires a longer time factor to have any effect. Therefore, assuming that both direct and indirect are effective in their own way, indirect game is designed to have a more gradual effect to get you to where you want to be with her. My point is that it is VERY difficult to accelerate her sexual attraction to you without even some minor direct comments. Otherwise, your gonna be cooking at low heat with her. Hopefully, that cake will get done eventually. Thats why guys rely on alcohol and stimulating environments to help them accelerate the process when going indirect. Otherwise, you’ll likely be waiting.

Direct game, however, can have very different effects depending on the type of direct game that you are kicking. You can’t just say “direct doesn’t work in this situation, compared to indirect”. Without specifying the type of direct game. I never tell girls that they are ‘pretty’. Thats lame. Direct, yes, but also lame.

You can do the “nice guy direct” “your pretty, I want to get to know you” type of direct game and get one result. That will probably result in a dinner date and her wanting to be wined and dined and romanced into bed. If your good at that, like Zan, for instance, then you can do very well. You’ll be the lothario / pirate / romantic archetype that every woman has as her ideal. An extremely effective, but advanced way to game that requires a lot of practice and advanced skill, either innate or learned, to do well. I’m not that patient.

I prefer the more ‘direct to sex’ approach. Combine more sexual innuendo with an attitude of non-neediness and a direct message that you would like to fuck her, but your not desperate to fuck her. Interact with her in a fun, positive way with direct sexual comments peppered in. You could care less about her response. This is the most effective way to game, for the effort involved in learning it, that I have ever tried. Its my primary game now. Girls are actually shocked when they get to know me (after we’ve fucked a few hundred times), that I’m actually a very sensitive guy.

Chris
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Also, I have to comment that direct game is like taking steroids for your inner game.

Does a guy, who does mostly indirect game, have the believable(to the girl) confidence to go up to a random 8-10s on the street, on a regular basis, without blinking an eye, look her up and down like you want to eat her for breakfast, lunch and dinner, and tell her how fucking sexy she is? BTW, the message when thats done right, conveyed via your eyes and body language, isn’t “your pretty” but “I would fuck you all day and night”.

That type of confidence can only be had with practice with direct game. You lose your fear of women, because you are used to interacting with them in a sexual way. Your not nervous, and so they aren’t nervous. They become comfortable with letting their sexual guard down.

Culdcept
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These are two great ideas for day game. I’ve only tried direct game and it has gotten results. Either way, it only takes one approach to build courage and confidence. Once the first one is done, no matter if you were rejected or not, you will try again with the next girl you see. The first one of the day/week whatever is the toughest hurdle.

Culdcept’s last blog post: The Details.

speakeasy
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I totally agree with George’s perspective that all game in essence is direct game when you’re in a bar/club type situation because she knows why you’re coming up to her. Just like if a random girl comes up to us in a bar and says ANYTHING whatsoever, even just the weather we just assume she likes us and that’s her opener. So I can see the logic in going direct all the time.

I also totally agree with the G that there’s open and closed(like weddings, parties, etc) environments where you have to tweak things too. In that circumstance, you can’t be too balls out in your approach because it’s just not appropriate. At a wedding reception or some group event, indirect game is your only choice.

George
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I guess it depends on how you define the terms. I always thought of “indirect” as the kind of thing you see pushed on a lot of Game sites where you talk to a girl over your shoulder, avoid walking right up to her, and then do so in an offhand casual way as if you have no interest in her whatsoever. That over the shoulder, don’t directly face her, thing always struck me as weak and gay.

But if by “indirect” you simply mean “don’t proposition her or force her to choose without first letting her experience your personality, but it is ok to walk up to her directly and start a conversation where it is pretty obvious what you are after”, then I actually agree that THIS kind of “indirect” is the way to go for nearly everyone, EVEN handsome guys.

Only in rare situations when a girl is eyballing you should you walk up and directly proposition her. Although I guess that isn’t really that rare, but when a girl makes girl she is totally into you, you can go over because she has already “chosen”, but if that isn’t clear, then even the best looking guys with the highest status have first to let her experience their personality.

Chris
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Yeah, as far as approaching, unless you really want to do something elaborate to throw the scent off of the trail, she knows that you are interested in sex.

Guys who think that she doesn’t know this are doing themselves a huge disservice when it comes to their lifestyle and efforts.

You can either make her feel comfortable with it, by letting her know its no big deal with you, that your intentions aren’t hidden, and that you aren’t needy for it. Or you can watch her watch you be too insecure to let her know that you want her. And watch her watch you jumping through hoops to get her into bed (dancing, cracking jokes, buying drinks, hanging around her too much, looking at her too much, inviting her out too much, calling her too much). You can avoid all of that if she knows what your after. She will eventually call you when she’s ready (horny), if she doesn’t take you up on it right away.

Direct ranges from “your pretty” to “I wanna fuck” and everything in-between. It doesn’t have to fall at either extreme as far as what you actually say, but it can. It depends on you. It can be very, very subtle and still be just as effective. Its the message received that matters, not what you actually say.

I find somewhere in the middle to be the best. You aren’t shocking her pride and programming by assuming that she will jump into the sack right now with you (“I wanna fuck”), but you can avoid triggering the romantic (“aww, isnt he sweet / thanks, thats the hundredth time I’ve heard that”) reflex (your pretty). Be sexual, but in a way that doesn’t send her running. Small comments about her lady parts tends to work well, without looking for a reaction from her. But also build report so she can not take it too seriously.

Not to hijack Rooshes comparison article with a direct diatribe. Sorry Roosh.

therealdeal
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Chris is on point here. remember that rejection is win-win because

1) you don’t waste time…how many times have you “tried to show her your value” and wasted time, effort and energy only to be refused later on.

2)there is a significant percentage of women who will reject a man just so that she doesnt lose face or appear desperate, however deep down she is intrigued by this man’s guts and big ass balls…she will contact him in the future and he will have the upper hand (it has happened to me on 2 occasions during the last year)…at the bare minimum, she will talk to her friends about how self-assured this guy is and more often than not, her friends will get curious.

in sum, the consolation prize for being rejected is to plant the seed in her mind that you are a man who is highly self-assured and is not intimidated by her.

schwanson
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i’m still up-n-coming so correct me if i’m wrong here. but this is how I make sense of all this:

-indirect game thwarts her conscious mind and all the stupid reasons it might have to not consider you sex-worthy

-time spent in off-the-cuff conversation builds comfort.

-at the same time your conan-like body language, harmless touching, steady physical escalation and deadly takeaways ply her subconscious mind.

So by the time you say ‘let’s get out of here/put your number in my iTelephone/my RV has a honeymoon suite’ she’s into you, and down for it.

indirect openings are effective like suppressive fire, but closing the deal boldly (directly) is very attractive and a lot of fun for both guy and girl.

the last chick that hooked for me, i opened indirectly, assumed attraction, qualified, got called out on my shit, declared i was there to see if she was worth my time/dating dime, and then built comfort.

man i need to get laid badly.

paper alpha
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paper alpha
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I think people here overrate status. I have tons of status (make lots of $) and it doesn’t help me get chicks in bars.

Game is more important than status (except for with golddiggers)

ElGuapo
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ElGuapo
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A perfect example of indirect game is ‘Style’ or ‘Mystery’. Indirect game is great when you’re getting into game, where as direct game comes from experience. Also, indirect game can be taught much easier as a series of steps; direct game is trickier to show.

It also depends on the venue. If you’re traveling and in a hostel, I think one can be a bit bolder — more direct — since people are more open to sex when traveling. I would never go indirect with some chick in a hostel in Rio, for example. She knows and I know that we’re looking to bang.

One has to be crazy to run cube routines or do some other ‘tricks’ on a girl when in a traveling environment. You’re a confident traveler, she’s out to have fun, so just a move and make it happen.

Indirect game has its place when you’re going for a classmate, or at a wedding or similar social setting.

I agree though: those who’re starting out, start with indirect game and build from that.

ElGuapo’s last blog post: Random thoughts on Brazil.

therealdeal
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“You mean how many times has a girl flaked or changed or mind? Are you insinuating that girls never do that on guys who approach direct game? So it only takes you 2 minutes from meet to fuck when you do succeed? You approach more girls than an indirect game guy, and have much weaker early and mid game simply because you don’t get there as much.”

girls of course do that, hot women love to be ambiguous and difficult lol! however being direct can force them to reveal their hand early. why? because some women do NOT want to reject a man too early, they want to use him for his attention (and sometimes money) to stroke their egos.

The way I approch dating is like marketing, sales, and psychology. even yourself, you mentionned the book by cialdini ( a must read btw). it said that people follow those:
1) whom we like in appearance

2)have social proof (like the great quote by kundera you once put)
3)ACT and BEHAVE as an authority (I put emphasis on these words because I believe a man should approach a women with the confidence that he knows deep down that he is more worthy than her and that she’ll be down to F him at a given time, whence the need not to beat around the bush and pretend that he aint trying to get into her pants. Any resonnably attractive and experienced women KNOWS the reason you are striking elaborate fluff talk with her is to get into her pants so why not burn a few bridges!)

4)scarcity, people want what they can’t have so a man should be aloof and dont be too available or anxious.

again, direct game is more than an opener it’s a mindset. check out paul janka too btw.

maybe indirect can work for newbies if they are geeky/below average/socially inapt but if a guy can improve his looks and status (and he should have the ambition to) then direct is better in my opinion.

therealdeal
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therealdeal
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Alan Roger Currie breaks it down

http://charmingrogue.com/alan-roger-currie-interview/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKBlh4GzI4U

furthermore, this is what paul janka has to say on the numbers game and sexual market:

– There are 3 types of girls around: yes, no and maybe girls

Again, the effective hustlers know how to judge the three types and work accordingly.
All guys know the “no” girls. They are sticks in the mud, stand-offish, difficult,
Princesses. Any guy who has been laid several times knows this type of girl. He
probably has a gut instinct that she’s going to be hard to get in the sack. “Yes” girls, by
contrast, are flirty, fun, open with body language and game for anything. They allow you
to ask them back to your place with ease. The problems are the “maybe” girls, especially
if they are hot. Even after years of practice, I still can get stuck on these types, but as
soon as I recognize the direction we’re going I can make the call. The “maybe” girls are
where most guys get hung up spending all their money and time, thinking that they will
get her. Careful, gentlemen, you are dealing with pros. Even other women will admit
how manipulative a woman can be. Don’t assume you’ll wear here down or trick her.
It’s better to walk then to throw more energy at these problem girls.
So, back to the system. Prior to recognizing how effective a system for getting
laid could be, I would take my opportunities where they presented themselves: poolside
at a wedding, on the Chinatown bus between Boston and NYC, in a cab, in Central Park.
Don’t get me wrong, there is not a wrong place to take a woman. But if you want to get
laid with a minimum of time, energy, hassle, bullshit, and most importantly, cost, then
you should work out an effective system.
Think about it. All other business enterprises have a system to deliver a good or
service: Starbucks coffee is fresh, hot and strong because of the system and protocol the
baristas follow. Any successful business must follow a blueprint if it hopes to achieve
significant results; the same applies to shagging women, believe it or not. Do not leave
your sex life up to chance – what women often call “romance”. Take charge of it.
So, we have this large market of single men and women. A city like NY is ideal,
because it’s concentrated, and there are so many people and the city is sexy and
anonymous. By the way, anonymity is key because as a hustler, I try (as I encourage you
to) all types of new methods and approaches; some work, some work brilliantly, but alas,
some fail and fall flat. In this city, who cares, because chances are you won’t see the
person again, and even if you do, by that time you’ll be a confident playboy and who
cares what one stupid bitch thinks, anyhow.
So, it’s a market, and there are plenty of girls for everyone. Also, to us they may
be hot and sexy, but to themselves and other girls, they are just competition, and have
their own un-sexy habits like farting, burping, bad breath, fat thighs etc. Don’t fall for
women’s facade. It’s been my experience that women are heavily front-loaded in what
they can offer – their value-proposition. She may look fit, sexy and sophisticated, but
after you’ve banged her and she’s naked, with mascara running down her face and she’s
trying to stuff her thighs into a pair of too small jeans at 2am, you’ll realize she’s just
another person trying to get by. Don’t be intimidated.

Old Nemesis
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A reason why I use direct game is pretty much the same as mentioned by Chris and G Manifesto – time. Makes it much easier to recognize if the girl is open to one night stand or not. Since I generally do not do dates and not even collect phone numbers, going indirect would be a waste of time for me.

The Rookie
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The Rookie
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Haha you said “peeping.”

I’d say even if you have above average looks you might as well go indirect. When your looks start to fade, you’ll be good to go. That’s my goal at least.

The Rookie’s last blog post: Anticipation.

Papillon
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Papillon
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nice post & constructive comments

Rivelino
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Rivelino
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Like Style says, coming in “under the radar” works much better for us guys that have a winning personality (and intellect) but don’t have Brad Pitt looks.

Rivelino’s last blog post: Young and sweet only seventeen.

Lovechild
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Lovechild
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Man you’re still caught in the stupid Direct and Indirect jeez man!

They’re not better they’re DIFFERENT! Because not all women are the same.

Here a better analogy from Patrice Oneal’s “The Black Phillip Show:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PgiHJ9Lx3cU#t=5m26s

You guys better get out of that stupid community mindset!!!

Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Fuck man you must be bored to write this shit. Syop analysing Roosh…get out there rather than watching.
Indirect = no balls

Willy Wonka
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I like indirect better for night game – bars and clubs and shit… but at the same time, girls know why you are approaching them when out. It’s not rocket science.

I want to experiment with direct game during day game scenarios though, that seems to be the consensus for game/PUA blogs for what I see…

Willy Wonka’s last blog post: Trying To Make a Grown Man Move.

Living in Squalor
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Living in Squalor
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I sometimes get so bombed I can’t even form whole sentences when I’m out. I could come up and bump your ass and then laugh and they ask my name. They will get annoyed because I’m so hammered that they can’t have a conversation with me, but a lot of them will stick around. I could smile, laugh, kiss them and hail a cab and still get away with it. I think direct is best after leaving most of the indirect behind. Aside from being a drunken ass clown, direct is often rewarded because you put your sack in front of them for them to stomp on. You’re so used to throwing it out there that they can see you don’t care either way. Skips a lot of the rapport part but you can build that during pillow talk.

V
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V
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Direct game is just what guys have been doing for decades. For those of you guys who say that if a girl is in a club she know that you are trying to pick her up. Sure.

But I think Game is all about creativity. How many “I think you seem interesting,” or “Hi my name is” do you think she gets if she’s cute? If she’s beautiful? The number is a lot. This is why prepackaged openers exists.

If the girl is in a two set indirect game can be perfect if you pay attention to the to the other target, because then she can think that you were trying to hit on her friend.

Also I know that although my first thought is that guys are trying to pick me up when they talk to me out of nowhere ( strangers) in clubs or during the day time. I have a hard time justifying this without evidence. Direct game gives evidence. Indirect doesn’t. many girls may put up the same bitch shields for indirect game, but I think that my bitch sheild isn’t half as strong.

It’s rude to tell someone just asking for some help to go away, but it’s not rude to to tell someone trying to pick you up to go away, or that you’re not interested it.

V’s last blog post: Old Man Game.

VK
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VK
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what a skinny homo you have become. Could’ve had a dope suit and a place of your own by now easy but couldn’t even hold down a job.

sloopJohn
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sloopJohn
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Terrific post and many good comments.

In general I have agree with Roosh about indirect being the default choice. But a lot of this stuff is intuitive, and sometimes girls make up their minds in a few seconds. Pay attention to reactions, the look in her eyes etc. It may pay off to switch to a more direct game if the vibe is there.

virgle Kent
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Don’t know who the fuck that fake VK is on comment 29 but that fuck face really needs to stop jacking my fucking swagger and sign! Eat a dick.

Roosh,

This post was filled with great shit. I notice that I’ve been using direct game more and more, but that’s only because my Swagger has been of the charts lately. Like you said if your confidence is high because girls have been responding well to your game, then other girls can tell you have something going on.

Vincent Ignatius
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I think people here overrate status. I have tons of status (make lots of $) and it doesn’t help me get chicks in bars.

Unless you have your account balance written across your forehead, the girls in bars don’t know that. If you just drop that info in a conversation, you look like you’re trying too hard and that lowers your value. But if you attained your status by being good at something, then attend an event associated with that thing where everyone knows your status beforehand. The chicks will be far more open to your advances.

Back home, I’m popular among the students at my school and host a ton of events. I pick up girls at these events using that status. But when I’m out at a pub here in Nicosia, all that status back home doesn’t mean shit. I can’t be like, “By the way, I’m no one here, but people 4000 miles away think I’m the shit.”

Vincent Ignatius’s last blog post: I Bought Bang.

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Making a lot of $ (=high status) with no social skills obviously wouldn’t get you chicks. You still need to seduce her.

Social Skills = Game

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“Making a lot of $ (=high status) with no social skills obviously wouldnâ��t get you chicks. You still need to seduce her.”

Very true. I have a friend that has money, drives a brand new Corvette, wears nothing but Armani and True Religion… and he gets nowhere near the amount of pussy I get and I’m broke working new little bullshit hourly jobs and getting fired from them every couple of months.

He just has no game. I’ve been trying to teach him some game, but it’s a slow process, as I’m not great yet myself…

Willy Wonka’s last blog post: Notch Counts and Expectations.

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“Sorry your comment was blocked because it contains the word: p*ssy”

Wtf Roosh? Isn’t this blog about getting p*ssy?!? How can that be a blocked word?!?

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@Vincent Ignatius

““By the way, I’m no one here, but people 4000 miles away think I’m the shit.””

You should be able to carry that via confidence everywhere you go. That’s the key: you are a king in one situation and that should be transferable.

I co-organized crazy parties in Rio, but here in New York, my confidence is skyrocketed because of prior experiences. I suppose that’s what “PUA gurus” call inner game or something.

ElGuapo’s last blog post: Living Series: Belo Horizonte, Brazil.

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“For some really good-looking guys who have limited conversational skills, going indirect would actually hurt them. They need to quickly get down to business before she realizes there isn’t much substance beneath the surface.”

Sounds like me.

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One thing that I’ve learned from doing game is the IOT. It’s like the IOI (Indicator Of Interest) but it’s not the same. IOT stands for Indicator Of Trashiness, it’s almost as good as an IOI. If a girl has a tattoo, that’s potentially an IOT. The IOT has revolutionized the world of pickup.

FAZ’s last blog post: Does it make sense to fight an up hill battle?.

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I wouldn’t consider myself particularly good looking and I sure as hell wasn’t good at game when I started out. I think everyone can gain from using a bit of direct game. I found that practising direct game as a noob, did a lot for my confidence, attitude, body language etc. Also caveman style direct game is very attractive to a lot of girls. A lot of ugly, unconfident guys will look a lot sexier with a smirk on their face conveying to a beautiful girl how she makes them feel. Its a lot simpler and doesn’t have too many steps to remember. That means there is less of a chance of a noob fucking it up. I’m just making a case for ordinary Joe’s benefiting from direct game. My success went way up after I started going direct and learning how to use it effectively. Not just because of just what I was saying, but the knock on effects it had on my confidence and sexual expression.

Sure there’s never just one tool for the job. Also like you said in Bang, there’s a lot of game but only a small range that serves any one guy. I would say mine incorporates a liberal dose of direct.

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I’ve heard it said the opposite for Indirect and Direct Game. At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is to have the Basic Fundamentals of Game down. Once you have that, either style doesn’t matter.

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I just started reading these after I discovered Roosh while researching Colombia. That said, I’m late to the party but, here’s my perspective. I’m 6’2 big, fit, and handsome. I used to only go direct (because I didn’t know any other way) unless I stumbled upon indirect by accident and I was very limited on the type of girl I could close. I started studying game and basically I look at indirect as another weapon in the arsenal. When you’re trying to close, you have to move from one side of the spectrum to the other with the polarity of direct vs indirect. A good salesmen doesn’t go direct until he’s built up the value of whatever he’s selling. That’s why indirect game is necessary and also Roosh’s point, when you say “are you in or out?” you force a answer, and that could be a deal breaker. I had to learn indirect because some women found me intimidating and it was really an issue with my close ratio. Indirect allowed me to build the value, keep the conversation going, and ultimately set up the final direct question/suggestion “Let’s get out of here.” Roosh and all other indirect game players have to use direct when they finally close imo but, indirect is more fun. It takes finesse, more intellect, and a degree of patience that let’s you almost savor the seduction. Also, as a big dude, it works even better because it isn’t EXPECTED. Ultimately, I think a good game player will have both tools and recognize when to use them. Obviously there’s a preference, but when tightening up the game, you have to have the confidence that direct game requires. All you little/average looking guys would launch a surprise attack if you used direct sense it isn’t expected. I think some guys think direct means being obnoxious and whatnot, but to me it means being more up front and moving to close sooner than you would if you were using indirect. Some girls like a guy who has the balls to go for it. They like a warrior who’s willing to storm the castle. I hate being redundant but, to drive the point home, you have to oscillate between the two and recognize when to pull out what tool (Nice pun huh?)

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Ok, I just read that article and it is WAY off the mark. I’m actually boiling after reading that article, because the guy who wrote it states a lot of his misconceptions about Direct as facts, when in fact much of what he says isn’t true at all. That guy doesn’t understand Direct at all. He is a typical ‘indirect PUA guru’ who talks shit about Direct. I’m going to break his article down bit by bit, because it’s mega important that someone stands up to these indirect guys who are spreading false propaganda about direct. I’ve got some strong words to say here, and I make NO APOLOGIES for what I’m about to say because it needs to be said. This is going to be a long reply, so grab yourselves a cup of coffee guys and read on….

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[QUOTE=Roosh]
While direct game does have its uses and can work in certain situations, I firmly believe that if you’re a guy who has little natural ability and needs aftermarket game to get laid, you’ll have a higher success rate with indirect game.
[/QUOTE]

I disagree….a lot of people seem to think that if you’re a newbie to approaching and dating women, that you should start with indirect and then later on progress to Direct. I think this is misguided information. Direct and indirect are two OPPOSING philosophies and two different forks in the road, so you have to decide which fork in the road you’re going to take. One road does not lead to the other.

I actually think if a guy who’s new to approaching and dating women starts off with indirect, he’s going to find it harder to progress to Direct at a later stage because he’ll be so brainwashed by all these indirect ‘pseudo science game theories’ that he’ll have to unlearn that before he can progress to direct. If a guy wants to be Direct with women, he should start out as Direct from the start. He shoudn’t get involved with indirect at all if he wishes to pursue the Direct philosophy. End of.

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[QUOTE=Roosh]Here are a couple direct game openers:

“Hi I noticed you from across the room and you seem like an interesting person. What’s your name?”

“Hi I don’t have a lot of time to talk, unfortunately, but you seem like the type of person I would like to get to know. Do you want meet some other time over coffee?”[/QUOTE]

First point: direct is not ‘game’, it is simply about TRUTH and being REAL. I wish all these indirect guys would stop calling Direct ‘direct game’. Basically, they are trying to use direct as a technique or tactic. ‘Game’ is a term from the indirect community, where one applies a bunch of techniques, tactis and routines in order to try and get women.

Direct is the antithesis of all that. It’s about not using ‘game’ and instead about being REAL. So stop referring to direct as ‘direct game’ and instead refer to it simply as Direct.

Second point: Direct is not about having preplanned ‘openers’. Direct is about opening with whatever is on your mind in the moment and letting your interest in the woman be known right from the start. The concept of using preplanned ‘openers’ comes from the indirect community.

Third point: neither of those two ‘openers’ are Direct. The first one ‘[I]Hi I noticed you from across the room and you seem like an interesting person. What’s your name?'[/I] is NOT direct. In no way does this ‘opener’ express the fact that you’re sexually/romantically attracted to the women. This ‘opener’ simply conveys PLATONIC interest, as there is no sexual element. How is the women going to know what you want from her and that you’re interested in her sexually/romantically by saying that ‘opener’?

The same applies to the second ‘opener’, [I]’Hi I don’t have a lot of time to talk, unfortunately, but you seem like the type of person I would like to get to know. Do you want meet some other time over coffee?'[/I]. The only thing this opener conveys is that you’re interested in getting to know the woman….but there’s no way to tell if you’re interested in getting to know her because you want a platonic friend or if you want a lover. It cannot be ‘assumed’ that she knows you’re sexually attracted to her.

Therefore these openers are Mode 2 or even Mode 3…i.e. indirect. There are NOT direct. These examples alone prove that Roosh does not understand Direct.

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[QUOTE=Roosh]Direct game doesn’t mean you get mushy, throw out compliments[/QUOTE]

Again, stop calling Direct ‘game’. And there is nothing wrong with opening with a genuine, sincere compliment. Nothing at all. David X, the Godfather of Direct, compliments women from the outset. He asks himself what about her turns me on?’, then goes over to the woman and tells her what he’s noticed.

As long as you’re not using compliments to gain ‘browny points’ and as long as you state your intentions straight away, then there is nothing wrong with opening with a sincere compliment. If anything, a compliment lets a woman know you’re sexually attracted to her if said right!

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QUOTE=Roosh]The main problem I have with direct game is this: it shows your cards right away and forces the girl to make a decision before you build up any value besides your appearance and confidence. That’s not enough for the majority of Western girls. You’re not giving her the time and information she needs to weigh the pros and cons on sleeping with you. [/QUOTE]

What’s wrong with showing your cards right away? When you show your cards right away, you force a girl to show HER cards right away…which is exactly what you want! Also, you can still get to know a girl after you’ve approached her Direct, so you can see if you’re compatible or not. A lot of indirect guys seem to think that you have to get to know a girl first, before revealing your intentions.

But when you hide your intentions by going indirect, you allow the girl to hide her intentions too, thus leaving yourself open to being manipulated, having your time/money/emotional energy wasted. Better to know UPFRONT if a girl is sexually attracted to you or not, so you can move on without wasting time if she isn’t interested. The problem with indirect is that is doesn’t allow you to efficiently identify which women are interested in you sexually and which women are not.

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[QUOTE=Roosh]Instead, immediately after the opener, you force her to decide right then and there if she wants to get involved[/QUOTE]

This is EXACTLY why you need to be Direct with women! You NEED to put them in a position where they are forced to either RECIPROCATE or REJECT your interest in them. The problem with indirect is that it doesn’t do that…it allows a woman to toy with you and not give you a yes or no answer, but instead to say ‘maybe’ to you. Wouldn’t you prefer to know UPFRONT whether a woman is interested in you or not?

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QUOTE=Roosh]She’ll bow out (“Sorry I have a boyfriend”), or just be nice to you for the flattering attention[/QUOTE]

What do you base these assumptions on? I’m sick of indirect guys AUTOMATICALLY ASSUMING that ‘direct will get you rejected, therefore you need to go indirect’.

Let me set you straight. A woman will only reject you outright if she’s not interested. I haven’t found that women will ‘just be nice to you for flattering attention’ if you approach them Direct. I’ve found that with indirect, though.

And the line ‘I’ve got a boyfriend’ shouldn’t always be taken at face value. Anyone who’s experienced with women should know that.

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[QUOTE=Roosh]Truth is direct game guys get a lot of numbers but have a pitiful close rate.[/QUOTE]

NOT TRUE. If anything, it’s indirect that has a pitiful ‘close rate’. Most indirect guys spend ages talking to women, running their routines, techniques, tactics etc and their focus is on getting the phone number. However, how many of these phone numbers actually lead to anything more, such as a date, sex, getting a girlfriend, etc?

My thoughts about indirect are that it simply entertains a girl in the moment…gets her laughing, gets her talking to you….but a lot of the time gets you nothing beyond that. Indirect simply gives you the ILLUSION that you’re ‘getting somewhere’ with a woman, when in reality all you’re doing is having an entertaining interaction with her and possibly getting her phone number. But what about actual closes?

Here’s something a lot of people don’t know: David X has said in interviews that he used to give counseling to Mystery. Mystery used to entertain women and get tons of phone numbers….but he could very rarely ‘close’ any of these numbers. And to think, thousands upon thousands of men all over the world look up to Mystery as if he’s some kind of ‘pickup God’ or something. The actual truth is a lot different.

As for Direct getting guys a lot of numbers…you’ll actually find that most Direct guys DON’T put their emphasis on getting phone numbers. Instead, we place our emphasis on STATING OUR INTENTIONS. Most Direct guys also don’t ask a girl for her numbers, but instead prefer to give her our number and tell her to call if she’s interested in getting together. So I don’t know where you got this idea that Direct guys get a lot of phone numbers and not many closes. This isn’t true, mate.

All these videos of indirect guys approaching women and getting numbers are bullshit too….I don’t care how many numbers the guy got, I want to know what happened AFTER that….did he get a date with the woman? Did he have sex with her? Did he start dating her? No video EVER tells you these things. It’s merely an ILLUSION that these indirect guys are getting ACTUAL CLOSES. Interactions and phone numbers, yes…closes? Rarely.

I want to add that I’m not saying indirect doesn’t work, I’m simply saying that is it far less efficient than Direct, and causes men to waste a lot of time interacting with women who are not genuinely sexually attracted to them, whilst giving you the illusion you’re ‘getting somewhere’ with her.