I Left My Wallet At Home

I didn’t used to mind paying for the 1-3 dates it took to get sex. Spending money on dating is part of the game and getting laid, kind of like how the sky is blue. It just is. But lately I’ve had serious doubts about this model, in part because I have been short-changing my value. It’s a lot higher than I think.

This is how I see it: I give a girl much more than she gives me; my stories, my vibe, my game, my sex. Their stories tend to be of the complaint nature and their humor cannot come close to competing with a man’s. It’s nice that she has a lubricated hole that brings me pleasure, but I have observed that these girls seem to enjoy getting fucked more than I enjoy fucking them. And this is not an insult to the girls—it’s just a fact that I value sex less than they value it with me.

Now I know how this is coming off, and I know what you are thinking, but I think my value as a man is at a point where a woman should be paying for my company. When a girl meets me, I honestly believe she is lucky to have done so; and I hope that most of you guys reading this believe that too when you meet a girl. Because I’m giving more pleasure and enjoyment than I’m receiving, it doesn’t make a lot of sense that I should have to pull my wallet out when the bill comes.

I understand that I live in a society with deeply entrenched dating norms—one that I do not have the power to change—so I will make a compromise to ease a girl’s introduction into my world. I’ll pay for the first date. I don’t mind too much, especially since the first date venue is my choice. After that though, it’s all her.

It’s still very early but my cost per notch so far this year is $77, not much more than the cost of a first date. I’m all about putting my ideas and beliefs into practice. In fact, my beliefs do become reality.

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irina
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irina
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I think when you meet the right girl, you won’t mind spending money on her because she will give a lot back. I agree that this way is pretty much benefiting her more than you.

Did you know that it is standard for Russian women to do her boyfriend’s laundry, make him feel good at the end of a day, and cook him meals? But he pays. And isn’t that a pretty good exchange?

Eric
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Do you articulate this to women? If so, would you wait until the end of the 2nd date (when the bill comes) to tell them, or would you tell them after the first date?

This seems like it’d be a hard sell.

Eric
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Especially when there are guys out there falling over themselves to take women out on expensive dates. What if the woman isn’t out for exquisite company — just a free meal at a nice restaurant? Their loss, I know, but you’ve still got to meet people.

I agree with your point, though. I don’t generally take girls to expensive restaurants one the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd date. I use that time to evaluate the girl and judge our compatability. If we get along, sure — I might want to go to an expensive restaurant. But only because I like eating at expensive restaurants.

Hiro
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Logically, I know what you mean about relative value and I agree. But I just couldn’t feel comfortable letting a woman pick up the check until we’ve reached a certain point in the relationship, and even then I bristle a little. It’s a visceral thing. Maybe it’s misogynistic, maybe it’s an ego trip, but it’s how my mama raised me. I can’t deprogram that shit and I wouldn’t try.

mm
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mm
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You shell out 77 on the first date? Why don’t you suggest something a little more low key (less expensive)?
So what are you going to do on the second date when the check comes? Fake an allergy attack? Point the waiter in her direction? Tell her you forgot your wallet? Even better….tell her you’re trying to keep your cpn low. haha. Good luck!

Genevieve
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Is it okay if I call you “John Kerry”? You kind of remind me of him; constantly contradicting yourself in your posts.

Anyways. My 2 cents since I haven’t put much in the jar lately due to my hiatus…

I think you paying for a certian number of dates shouldn’t be set. I think you should determine it per girl. Do you click with her? Do you have a genuine interest in her personality? Do you feel like she reciprocates those feelings? If you can’t answer “yes” to at least the first 2 then I say, go ahead. Make her pay the 2nd time. Most girls with any real interest in cultivating a relationship probably won’t fuck you on the first date, anyways. Or maybe that’s just me. I’m not sure.

Anyways, I think you’ve been dating too many bitches Roosh. Maybe you should take a break from the dating scene. Or maybe take things less seriously. It seems like you’re allowing yourself and your pride to get hurt too easily.
Chill out and enjoy the ride. Er whatever.

Nikita
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Since you’re allegedly so erudite on the subject of game, I can’t figure out why you continue to play by such lame rules. Pick another field, man! The girls you’re referring to are as dumbly focused on bling as you are on screwing them within some kind of contrived timeframe.

If dig a guy enough to make time for a date with him, then I’ve basically decided two things: A) based on what I know about him, he’s worthy of a date with me; B) based on what I know about him, he’s someone I want to go on a date with. A plus B should logically lead to conclusion C) we’re more or less equal in our desire and desirability, which means that neither of us should be tipping the scale by singlehandedly picking up a $70 tab. I admit, it’s a nice gesture, but it throws off that nice balance of power right off the bat (the girl feels like she owes the guy something physical, or the guy feels like he deserves it). Great sex can’t be purchased in three dates or less– and don’t beg to differ.

When I go out with a new guy for drinks, I always get out my wallet, he usually offers to pay the first round, and then I make sure to grab the next one (and alternate every round after that)– if only so he knows that I’m into him for his company and not for his wallet. If at some point during the date, I decide he’s cheesy or lame or sleazy and I don’t want to be there anymore, I’ll make up an excuse to cut out early before I’ll let him paw me in exchange for a few more $15 appletinis. (And for what it’s worth, I think the only respectable excuse for dropping $15 on a drink should involve the words “single malt”– but I’m probably an anomaly.)

In sum, I’d say if the issue of money (earned/spent/worn/insinuated) even enters into your first three dates in a prominent way, then that should be a red flag that you’re not dating the kind of person you want. If two people respect each other and are genuinely interested in getting to know each other, then the first three dates should be casual, fun, and full of substantive conversation– not distracted by dollars and shiny shirts.

And btw, if you’re basically paying to date girls in order to shag them after a couple of dates and inevitably disappointing sex, then wouldn’t it be a better budget strategy for you to just hire prostitutes?

DF
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“Their [girl’s] stories tend to be of the complaint nature and their humor cannot come close to competing with a man’s.”

I’ve met far too few women in my lifetime that I can honestly say have a great sense of humor but I’ve never met a woman I would consider a dime piece with a great sense of humor.

Mr Boofu
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And btw, if you’re basically paying to date girls in order to shag them after a couple of dates and inevitably disappointing sex, then wouldn’t it be a better budget strategy for you to just hire prostitutes?
***********************************************

Technically, most women are prostitutes.

Nikita
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Oh yeah, baby, excite me with your derogatory sensationalism!

If that’s seriously part of your worldview, Mr Boofu, I’m really sorry for you.

inowpronounceyou
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If Nikita is Russian, I am in love.

Days of Broken Arrows
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I’m not sure where I heard this (maybe from this site, way back) but I think women can smell insecurity a mile a way, and spending too much money on them smacks of insecurity. I think a coffee date is a good way to start. If you get along, then maybe money should enter the equation.

Also, this is not 1956. Women make money, so that should factor into the equation.

Generate
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If the expectation is that you should continue to pay for every date (after the first one), this should be taken as a sign that the chicks value system has a facet of materialism/gold-digging (whatever you want to call it). I have only been on a handful of first dates where the girl didn’t offer to pay (I always pay on a first date regardless). The offer to pay is basically recognition by the girl that you are giving her something (a good dinner, coffee whatever). If you continue dating a girl that never pays and seems to expect nice dinners, etc. don’t be surprised if she decides to split if things aren’t working out and someone else picks up the tab. Rich guys seem to care less about this because they’ve usually worked hard and attaining hot chicks is like paying the lease on a hot car or having another lavish expense. If you’re looking for quality, you won’t be able to buy it (unlike material goods, where usually this is the opposite). These women who don’t pay are the same women attracted to bling.

DF
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Mr Boofu: reductio ad absurdum

kayla
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“I give a girl much more than she gives me; my stories, my vibe, my game, my sex. Their stories tend to be of the complaint nature and their humor cannot come close to competing with a man’s.”

Why are you going out with them in the first place?! Talk about a waste of money. Especially since you value sex less than they value it with you (since you are not in it for the sex).

I will say there are a ton of dimes not worth a dime in this world…and we live in an area consumed with money and power (and an area where the girls with personalities of toast can continue to get dates). It’s a shame to lump all vags in one category. There are those of us who could care less about money, who offer to pay our share on dates (I am with Nikita, my wallet comes out on every date I go on) and who bring more to the table then a story of the complaint variety.

miik
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$77 is fine but $78? forget it!

Nikita
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Nikita
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Sorry, INPY, I’m just a foxy French spy who wears black leather catsuits to the shooting range.

Nikita
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Right, but my point is that “the vibe necessary for sex” should (and generally does) come from natural chemistry between two individuals who arouse each other– not from the marginal utility of candlelight and a linen tablecloth. If I wanna get naked with a guy, that same vibe will be there whether we eye-fuck over lattes or filet mignon.

As for who pays, my decision about whether or not to sleep with someone at the end of the night is generally made well before the check arrives.

Jay Gatsby
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“As for who pays, my decision about whether or not to sleep with someone at the end of the night is generally made well before the check arrives.” — Nikita

If this is the case, and the answer to the question is “no”, then why do women still insist (passively or actively) on men picking up the check? Talk about arrogance — not only will you not sleep with him after he takes you out on a date (sacrificing other opportunities), but you make him pay the entire bill as a final kick in the balls. How about a little bit of honesty for a change? Insist on paying your half of the check (or perhaps the whole check, since you received the benefit of his company), and tell the guy to his face that you had a nice time but the night is going to end early?

Roissy
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roosh, i’d even go so far to say that after a certain first date price point (somewhere around $80 per venue in my experience) a guy’s odds of sex vibe (OSV) start to reverse, especially if his game is less than stellar. OSV is close to bell-curve shaped, with the median frontloaded on the left hand side where he will get the most bang for his buck followed by a plateau and a gradual decline on the right hand side where each additional dollar spent raises her suspicion that he needs to spend lavishly on her to keep her interested in him. what’s ironic is that the more the guy spends on his date (and bitches about it afterward), the more it will encourage her to get in touch with her inner golddigger, which every women has, their protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.

nikita, if your decision to sleep with your date is made well before the check arrives, then i assume this means you will still be sucking his cock after he slides the check to your side of the table, pulls out a calculator, and figures out your share of the bill, taxes and tip included?

Nikita
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First of all, Gatsby, who says I don’t?

I suspect that whatever anthropological clues lead you to conclude that “women still insist on men picking up the check” are the same ones that lead women to conclude that men still insist on doing it. (That was convoluted, but I think you’re smart enough to get it.) The most important thing (for both sexes) is simply making a gesture of willingness– after all, it’s as much of faux pas to assume someone else is constantly paying as it is for someone to let them. Just because your date may be able to pay for your dinner, it doesn’t mean you should abuse his/her generosity.

You may find this hard to believe, guy, but I’m not the only girl I know who actually prefers to pay my own way (or go Dutch) when dating. Personally, I think it’s more comfortable to alternate paying on dates, or even to playfully pay one another’s checks (rather than each ot his own), but I have no problem with feeding myself, if that’s the implicit agreement. I mean, come on– you’re not my dad. Or my expense account.

While I can’t speak for all women, my interest in dating isn’t usually dependent on the likelihood of my getting stuff for free.

Wendy
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I could care less about fancy restaraunts. Actually if a restaurant is too expensive it is no fun and the sense of humor goes out the door. Maybe you would find girls with a better sense of humor if you weren’t making them nervous with thoughts of how much you are spending for this chit chat session. Movie, ball game, home cooked spaghetti, pic nic anything would be more fun than a $77 meal.

rebecca
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So, you on a regular basis shell out nearly $80 to spend time with a woman who bores you for the sole sake of having sex with her when you don’t enjoy it that well? Maybe you need to try and date some different girls. And maybe your diminishing returns has more to do with the type of girl you take on the dates. I, for example, would say that I’m more of a coffee first-date girl. I would also say that the chance of you getting into my pants on the first date are pretty non-existent. Not because of the cost of the date, but because I’m not going to sleep with someone on the first date. Maybe the type of girl who prefers going out for quasi-expensive meals on the first date is a girl who is easier to get into bed. I’m not making judgement calls, just offering a theory.

Nikita
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Oh, Roissy, such a kidder.

I actually agree with you on your first point–if a guy goes too far in trying to impress a girl with his bling, he will actually creep her out/convince her that he must have an acorn for a penis. (Granted, there are women for whom the mere words “prix fixe” seem to trigger some primal lusty urge, but they are crazies and their harpy glint should blind you from a mile away.)

But come on, of course I don’t mean that a guy should be a total ass about splitting the check. Admittedly, the implicit 50-50 assumption should have already been established at the start of the date– i.e. you both decide where to go, what to order, etc. If one person expresses budgetary constraints (“Actually, I was thinking somewhere more casual”) and the other person replies with some variant of “Don’t worry about it,” then the assumption becomes that the latter person will cover the check.

But to answer your question, Roissy, if I’m ready to tear a guy’s clothes off after dinner, and I’m already assuming that we’re splitting the check, and then he still lets me pay when it comes, that will not affect my propensity to, um, see that he does.

inowpronounceyou
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Nikita; French? Firing range? Leather? I can make exceptions.

Roissy
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nikita, you wouldn’t happen to be hedonistic?
you and her share some… similarities.
call it male intuition.

hashing out checkpayage is more stylistic kabuki than accountant green eyeshade. it almost doesn’t matter who pays or in what amount as long as the guy can suave his way into any arrangement that leaves his date glowing with the inner dignity of a woman prideful of her femininity.
cleanly executed money handling isn’t sufficient to get you to sleep with him if it’s already been decided beforehand, but it is necessary to avoid befouling the OSV.

miik
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IF service AND the “date” are good:

THEN qualify- Tell her you’ve got the bill but she is paying the tip. Make eye contact and keep it, watch closely.

You test HER. She knows it and will try to “pass” if she likes you

If she refuses she is a bitch -doesn’t matter *unless she’s broke and you know it

If she is stingy on the tip (which is about the lowest class behavior possible) she is a bitch and a BAD PERSON don’t waste any more of your precious lifespan on her

If she uses the opportunity to overtip the 15% minimum for good service and goes say 25% she is probably a good person. Decide to leave it that way and next time go for all of bill with her tipping and 3rd date (which is after close most times) make “perpetual splitting the bill pact” but promise to treat occasionally and actually do it.

If she goes 30-35% she has a heart of gold –
but may be crazy gold goood crazy baaad
(keep gold)

If she’s Latin cute
just soak in the smiling bliss

Nikita
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INPY– Merci.

Roissy– If you mean hedonism according to Epicurus, then your intuition is right on. And am I to infer that you’re French, or simply a not-so-secret fan of French sadomasochist fiction?

Roissy
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“hedonism according to Epicurus”

i was thinking more sade.

“not-so-secret fan of French sadomasochist fiction?”

fiction? mademoiselle, only to those without the eyes to see.

Konnix
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I like it when a date reaches for her wallet. She’s conveying to me that hey, I know dating isn’t cheap (well good dates). Grabbing for the cash is the acknowledgement of it. I also agree that a good number of women in DC have no problem getting asked out and have become accustomed to getting everything comped.

I think someone already said this but if a girl digs you then a trip to the Whole Food’s “meal by the pound” for dinner would be just as good as a trip to Café Milano. Oh, and if you are on a date with a guy and he reaches for the check and says “Let’s just split this.” He is not into you and there will be no second date. I’ve started doing this when I don’t get a vibe. It makes the credit card statement more bearable when I get it.

menrva
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In fact, my beliefs do become reality.

I have no doubt that this is true, which leaves me to wonder…do you believe that there’s a girl out there for you so you can stop playing these types of games?

Maybe your constant focus on this type of outlook on dating is just perpetuating it.

boc
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as usual half of you missed the point about CPN

CPN = total cost before notch

that may or may not mean it was a $77 date. It could have been two $38.50 dates, or a $50 date along with a $25 date and a $2 date. The possibilities are endless, but it does not mean Roosh is dropping $77 on a single first date.

Days of Broken Arrows
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The more I think about this, the more I think the concept of a “date” is where a guy goes wrong.

Women I know go on dates with gentlemen then nitpick the guy’s sweater or some detail and he gets no action. These same women meet some underemployed guy by their apt. pool and he suggest coming over. They get in the habit of sex.

I believe dating was a concept from the 20th century. We have now gone back to our primal roots thanks to feminism, the internet and the waning influence of religion. Women consider dates “girly” IMO because they have become like men. They only respect guys who hit it with no respect for them because this forces them into being subservient females.

Days of Broken Arrows
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Addendum. I said: “Women consider dates “girly” IMO because they have become like men.”

Women will not tell you this. Just like women will not tell you what they really like about men, instead pulling out the old canard about a “sense of humor” being important. Never listen to what women say they want; instead watch what they do and who they screw. The class clown never got much action nor did the brain. The football guy did. Remember this.

ribald
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ribald
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grrr

Eastern European
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: This is how I see it: I give a girl much more than she gives me; my stories, my vibe, my game, my sex.

Welcome to your thirties (some are smart enough to get it during late twenties) – welcome to the age of less but better quality dates. You’ll love it.

Dalylavi Bin
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