Is It Time To Make A Truce With Men’s Rights Activists?

The beef between myself and MRA’s go back a long way. They have been the first to shame game tactics as “manipulation” while I repeatedly criticized them for being more focused on begging authority figures for rights and benefits instead of adjusting to modern-day realities by taking on the path of self-improvement. At the same time, they do understand the problems that are posed by feminism, so we’re not polar opposites on the ideological spectrum.

Last week I did a friendly video chat with prominent men’s rights activist Karen Straughan, who has perhaps done more than anyone in the movement to publicize men’s rights issues. Here’s the video recording:

While I don’t think their cause should be merged with ours, I’m failing to see the need for us to attack each other out of petty differences or boredom. For this year I would like to establish common ground with the men’s rights movement and maintain a civil dialogue, though I don’t see myself using their methods of petitioning the state for changes or adopting the tactic of painting men as victims who desperately need government help. We will likely never be best friends, but I hope at least we won’t be bitter enemies.

Read Next: Why Homosexual Marriage Matters For Straight Men

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redpillyogi
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Yes it is, otherwise we let the global elite win vis-a-vis divide and conquer

ThataJewPupped
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ThataJewPupped
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Godamit switch over to the dailystormer.com now doit godamit

redpillyogi
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“At every turn, the synthetic culture of Empire implores us to throw our hearts and minds into unconscious polarization. It wants us to radicalize ourselves to either patriot or terrorist, believer or atheist, white or black, liberal or conservative, strong or weak, and then embark on an endless crusade to reform, condemn, or destroy the other side. This one-way polarization renders all participants impotent, regardless of which side they pick. This subtle but devastating trick deactivates our will and we automatically forfeit our capacity to rule ourselves. Lost in unconscious polarization, we serve Empire.”

– Neil Kramer

Veni Vidi Vici
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Veni Vidi Vici
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The Fire of Passion what seperates moderates from fanatics. I find the paralyzing indecision of moderates far more malable tool of the state.

redpillyogi
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You can still be passionate about your individual path and efforts. Whatever you do, do it 110%. But the above quote references things of a political nature. Anyone with half a brain knows that divide and conquer is the game plan of the global elite.

George Puller
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George Puller
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Well written that Neil is

redpillyogi
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Yeah he’s really got some fantastic, mystical food for thought

Dailystormer.com
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Dailystormer.com
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Gotdam im geete booored. Jewhunting is sooooooooo boooring here. visit the dailystormer.com and quit the fucking sandnigger

Herzog
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Herzog
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I miss the manosphere circa 2009 before everybody started flinging poo over minor ideological differences. Then you had MRA blogs like the Spearhead which had a major overlap in users with Heartiste, etc.

Masculist Man
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Masculist Man
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Heartiste instigated it. I remember that because Roissey was talking about feminists one minute and attacking us next. We didn’t do anything to the PUA’s.

greyghost1
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greyghost1
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The Spearhead was fun.

frank rook
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frank rook
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I see little wrong here for now. Spreading ourselves too thin fighting among ourselves is only playing into the hands of the SJW’s, Femmies & their handlers.

Never believed in the MRA approach of appealing to authority to fix things. It relies on pinning hopes on an honor system that has proven to be corrupt & toxic for men.
But a sit down with all the capos? Sure. This is an enemy of my enemy sort of thing. Good video!

CoffeeCrazed
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CoffeeCrazed
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I see it as identical to the bun fights between protestant denominations. The basic ideology is shared; what to do with it is fought over.

I enjoy some MRA writings, but sometimes it is too whiny. Not what I would seek to make of myself.

temmy9 .
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temmy9 .
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We need to use a broad front strategy. You may dislike the other guy, but in the interests of the movement as a whole you set aside your disputes with each other and point your guns at the shared enemy. This is how the left has won its victories.

Masculist Man
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Masculist Man
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Excellent point.

Daniel Holland
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Daniel Holland
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The only hiccup I can think of is AVFM getting mad at the AltRight, and associating you with them (and you are, loosely).

Because Dean thinks Cologne was made up by and large.

I dont know if AVFM or Dean matter though.

Masculist Man
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Masculist Man
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AVFM doesn’t speak for all MRA’s.

Daniel Hollizzle
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Daniel Hollizzle
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I know. Didn’t mean I to imply it did

John1
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John1
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This is like how conservatives are stupid for hating libertarians. What they both desire are about 80-90% the same. Who cares if a libertarian wants some drugs to be legal and back benches the moral issues that conservatives care so much about. They just don’t want the morality police coming to get them when they light up a joint. I’m fine with that. They are with conservatives more the liberals on just about everything. The rest of the stuff there care about is of little consequence to the mainstream. As long as they believe in the free market, individual liberty, gun rights, and care something about immigration (I loathe open border libertarians) then I am fine having them in my ranks. Same guys for MRA people. I think the whole whining which seems to pervade the movement is childish and same with the MGTOW (don’t want to marry or have kids fine by me just don’t expect me to care about you when you are older with no children complaining about how society has left you behind). We agree on much more then what we disagree on. Let’s make nice and work on smoothing out the edges of the 20% we don’t agree on.

OrthodoxChristian
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OrthodoxChristian
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“This is like how conservatives are stupid for hating libertarians. What
they both desire are about 80-90% the same. Who cares if a libertarian
wants some drugs to be legal and back benches the moral issues that
conservatives care so much about. They just don’t want the morality
police coming to get them when they light up a joint. I’m fine with
that. They are with conservatives more the liberals on just about
everything. The rest of the stuff there care about is of little
consequence to the mainstream. As long as they believe in the free
market, individual liberty, gun rights, and care something about
immigration”

Libertarians disagree on 90% of the important stuff which they consider mere “moral issues” (baby murder, sodomy, etc.). That they support gun rights and a free market just means they’re not complete fools. They don’t understand that a civilization needs monarchy, theocracy, and patriarchy or it goes insane and commits suicide.

John1
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John1
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Umm you are talking end game man. We are hardly there.

Masculist Man
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Masculist Man
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Monarchy? Like Britain? No. Theocracy? Like Iran? Hell no.

Cupid
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Cupid
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Roosh, it seems you’ve found your wife. There’s chemistry between you two.

Kamal
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Kamal
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The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Masculist Man
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Masculist Man
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Exactly. That is why we working together we can accomplish great things.

Kamal
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Kamal
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We will.

spicynujac
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spicynujac
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For the record, I didn’t know the difference between MRA and ROK until someone explained it to me. Even after reading here for several months. I think it’s silly to fight over such minor squabbles.

Johnny Wendigo
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Johnny Wendigo
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A day in the life of a real feminist:

Masculist Man
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Masculist Man
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That was fucking hilarious. That must be a joke.

The Thraex
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The Thraex
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She looks like a female equivalent of a white knight saving men.

Wes
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Wes
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She is a mother of men, ridiculously intelligent and well read. Mothers love their sons and she is smart enough to see that society wants to hold her boys down. Beware of a mamma bear

Jahn CB
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Jahn CB
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She is a friend, that’s it. Stop your pussy worship which turned things to shit in the first place.

Wes
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Wes
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You are one bitter little idiot.Didn’t your mommy love you enough.

Jahn CB
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Jahn CB
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And ain’t you your girlfriend’s malleable pussy, sunshine?

Wes
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Wes
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Try English next time buddy. Your insults lack a wee of of punch, when they require translation from the rare dialect of Hillbilly you are trying to speak.

Jahn CB
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Jahn CB
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Well, Hillbilly or not, it’s just a correct description of you and everyone understands that. No need to be sophisticated when dismissing the pussy-whipped, eh!

Wes
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Wes
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Ok I admit it, its a good thing you sound like an ignoramus. It’s accurate

Masculist Man
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Masculist Man
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If she came running up,arms stretched out wide saying “rape me and get it over with” you would see a lot scared motherfuckers too.

TSK
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TSK
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It’s true that men have been screwed by the government and feminist agenda but complaining about our situation without fixing or trying to improve our situation should be laughable. Men personally fix their problems. If men have problems then they should do something about it, fix it and take action. Not cry about it online seeking attention and blaming it on the “system” all day and basically being drama prone. That’s such a feminine behavior.

Remember if you don’t like your situation then fix it. Men take actions. Men should NOT need government help. We men should learn to be self-reliant and learn how to tackle on situations. Learn to be self-sufficient and don’t depend on others. Don’t let your situation be controlled by others. Take control of your life.

Steve Brulé
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Like it or not, you support the government with your tax dollars. It’s not necessary to seek government help, but it is necessary to shut down harmful government programs.

TSK
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TSK
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^ yes true, we all pay taxes and we are all part of the process that facilitate the government with their agenda.

Avoid paying tax, or go straight to federal prison. I think the options to that is easier to make.

Masculist Man
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Masculist Man
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We might as well get something for our tax dollars. We protest unjust misandric laws and seek their repeal.

Masculist Man
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Masculist Man
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It is necessary to shut down harmful government programs.
That is exactly what we MRA’s strive to do. Like I said earlier we can work together.

Estwald
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Estwald
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Demanding that government step off and leave us alone is not the same thing as asking government to solve our problems.

Greigio76
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Greigio76
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Wait. You didn’t define yourself in contrast to the Men’s Rights Activists. Are you the Pick Up Artists movement? Or something more substantial?
Another place to find common ground is Christian Men, which these sites seem to have disagreement.
There can be a truce, but these things are odd in terms of why can’t we have our own ideas and live with that reality.

Roosh
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Roosh
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Pandabearnanke
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Pandabearnanke
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There’s a great book by Ian Ironwood called “The Manosphere” that describes the various factions.

>Traditional Conservative/Christian men
>MRAs
>Wise Old Men
>Alpha Dads
>PUAs
>MGTOW

Masculist Man
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Masculist Man
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Christian guys may not be as friendly to you PUA’s the way us MRA’s are.

spicynujac
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spicynujac
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If you don’t want to the whole video, listen to the last 10 minutes… great stuff.

Pelayo Martel
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Pelayo Martel
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I see common ground for the various pro-men groups as well as the parts of the alt-right. The wind is changing, and decadent leftist-poz matriarchy is getting shaky in what was supposed to be the very time of its victory. Yes there are fools who want to keep fighting faction wars, but now is a time where a broad, even if loose, common front can make a real difference.

Roosh, things you have been saying for years are now recognized by many, even by some people who refuse to admit where they got them.

Phero
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Phero
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You know well that most of them argue like feminists. If they don’t agree it’s “just because”, no reason.
And if they don’t agree or like an opinion, it must be demonized and shamed. Just like feminists.
So how do you co exist and agree on those terms?

Graft
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Graft
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Petitioning the state is necessary. How the fuck else are you supposed tp have a child who isn’t taken from you by gunpoint? Your assets taken from you by gunpoint. It’s always possible to tame a woman especially if she relies on you for support, it’s the family courts that are fucking us over in reproduction. You can’t beat the state if you want to have kids.

Eric_D_Read
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Eric_D_Read
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If by “truce” you mean “don’t got out of your way to do battle with the enemies of your enemies” than the answer must be yes.
There is too little common ground to think that the bulk of the MRM and ROK readership could be effective as active allies.
BUT… it is also unquestionably a foolish strategy to focus on doing battle with anyone who is currently out of favor with the ruling cultural establishment if you also find yourself in that category, whether as an individual or a member of a group with such a designation.

Waldo Meister
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Waldo Meister
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I see Roosh as the next Paul Elam. Elam’s only got at most 5 yrs left, a decade, tops. He’s 59 yrs old. That’s not actually old nowadays, but at some point, say maybe 65, people start tuning you out. We’re a youth obsessed society. So I see a vacuum when Elam leaves and I think Roosh will fill it.

Pandabearnanke
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Pandabearnanke
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I see the MRM being suckered into a PC arms race with feminists that doesn’t help anyone. Feminists say having sex with drunk women is rape? Well then the same standard should apply to women who have sex with drunk men! Female circumcision is wrong? Then male circumcision is wrong! Feminists shame men who do wrong? Then MRAs should shame women who do wrong! Its a race to the the bottom that helps no one.

But I agree we should work together or at minimum stay out of each others way.

Clark Kent
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Clark Kent
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“If you have a country where people are not getting married or having kids,…”

…Then you don’t have a country.

TSK
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TSK
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hi

Djay
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Djay
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If we say divide to conquer, I would say that associate up lead to win. Group up to attack a common enemy : Feminism !

Davis M.J. Aurini
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The hostility is entirely one-sided. Skepticism from our side – denunciation from theirs. Ours is a varied camp, full of debate; theirs is one of group-think, demanding that we all return to pre-2005 liberalism.

66Scorpio
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66Scorpio
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Some of the people on AVFM have some goofy opinions, like you can want to get married but still be considered MGTOW (!?) On balance I don’t find them as annoying as the mods of TRP on reddit. Didn’t a minor flame war erupt with them at one point?

jq747
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jq747
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There was nothing minor about it. I believe Hembling’s noisy exit from AVFM was in large part over the issue of MGTOW.

Mr. B
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Mr. B
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Align and conquer. Each achieve a desired end state that indirectly benefits the other. Not to sound like a neo-lib/prog-fag sucking the sack of diversity, but there is more to gain by embracing the commonalities while respecting the differences. Judge: yes. Diminish: no.

A good example is the notion of equal protection. I’ve never been a fan of MRA’s adopting the very tactic most of us abhor (victim hood), but from my view the end goal for us all is the same: reinstitution the patriarchy in our families by eliminating the State’s role in women’s lives.

There are a crap ton more good examples (SJW’s, PC culture, media, etc.) that all contribute to the ruining of western women, and my take specifically on MGTOW is the root cause for their perspectives are the same issues we see destroyed on RoK, RM, Heartiste and here. Again, there are a lot commonalities. How we all play the game doesn’t really matter to me – I’m playing to win.

Truce? I say that’s a good start. At the very least we shouldn’t shoot inside the tent – especially when there is both alignment and cooperation available. We are all rubbed with the same stink from feminists and their collaborators, so neither side adds weight to their pack by doing so.

DoucheBagDeLuxe
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DoucheBagDeLuxe
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thx

Roosh
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Roosh
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Yes emails will be sent out around January 18

Voland
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Voland
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There are two very fundamental things that separate MRA and PUAs, children and money; and both are game changers. Understand that and you have the key’s to the Universe.

Grampy_Bone
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Grampy_Bone
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Karen led me to Heartiste, which led me to Roosh. So she’s always been a bridge.

The problem is PUAs attacking MRA’s as sexless losers while MRA’s complain about PUA’s focus on getting laid. It’s pointless.

Rhyme Or Reason
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Rhyme Or Reason
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Any instance of a PUA or Neomasculine man “Attacking” an MRA is retaliatory. I’ve never seen the inverse.

Nightwatch20
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Nightwatch20
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That definitely seems true. MRAs always get defensive when lumped in with RoK.

jq747
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jq747
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You obviously didn’t follow the links provided in the article.

redpillyogi
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Maybe its because there is an age difference? From what I can tell, MRAs appear to be a bit older. But that is just from anecdotal experience.

TheToryStorm
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TheToryStorm
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We allied with the Prussian and Russians to take out the biggest SJW movement in history: The French Revolution. Constitutional Monarchists in Britain got over it and allied with absolute monarchies in Prussia, Russia and later, Spain, to stop Napoleon and the SJW”s of the revolution.

AV
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AV
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“We will likely never be best friends, but I hope at least we won’t be bitter enemies.”

An excellent and advantageous stance adjustment.

Paul Elam
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Paul Elam
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I think a civil dialogue is in order, even though there will be several very important points of contention.

One thing that will help the friction points smooth over is more accurate information from both sides.

The notion that MHRAs (at least efforts that stem from AVFM) are somehow appeals for changes in governance, state programs, federal funding, etc, is simply ludicrous.

We do take the editorial position at AVFM of equality under the law (selective service, genital integrity), and we point to the inequities that bias heaps on men and boys, but have no organized efforts to effect such changes. We believe a shift in cultural consciousness will eventually bring those things into effect.

I spoke to part of this last summer at Ryerson University where I stated I had no desire to use government to build shelters for battered men. As I have said repeatedly over the years, “government is not the answer.”

I have personally written several articles describing the mainstay of my personal philosophy a men’s movement that is counter-cultural, operating in complete indifference to mainstream politics, the status quo and government.

http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/counterculture/

From that article:

“The great countercultures of modern western history all have some very telling things in common. One, their members did not give a shit about the mainstream. Quite the opposite, their raison d’être, in part, was a fundamental refusal to identify with or accept mainstream sensibilities.

“The counterculture refuge from the problems that the mainstream inflicted on society was intellectual, emotional, artistic and literary. It was not in mainstream politics, mainstream jurisprudence or mainstream values. It was the kind of freedom only available in the confines of the human mind.

“Do we support people who are trying to change laws and seek political solutions for men? Sure, if it adds more apples to our basket, but we also note that the abysmal failure of those efforts is not unexpected for the time being.”

More here:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/updates/mhrm-counterculture-or-subculture/

And I even wrote a direct refutation of your points back in July of last year, explaining the AVFM tagline, “Changing the Cultural Narrative” here:

http://www.avoiceformen.com/a-voice-for-men/preparing-for-the-next-conquest/

How one gets from all this (or anything else I have written) that I am begging the state for rights, or lobbying for legal redress, is a mystery in need of explanation from those who further the false narrative.

Roosh, this Thursday you have agreed to come on my program for an hour and you have made clear your desire for a civil conversation. Civility you will get.

However, if your stated desire for a less acrimonious relationship between yourself and MRAs is sincere, and assuming that it is, the misinformation will have to be corrected. As denizens of this new world of male thought we owe each other the integrity of an honest dialogue.

Roosh
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Roosh
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I’ll be there Thursday. We can talk about these things and clear up the air, if possible.

Phero
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Phero
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“As denizens of this new world of male thought we owe each other the integrity of an honest dialogue.”
Does that include portraying guys like Roosh who write books for men as fraudsters?

Paul Elam
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Paul Elam
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It includes exploring every possibility on both sides.

Paul
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Paul
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MSM: See we told you they were MRAs.

StochasticFats
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StochasticFats
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Great interview. Two people I admire.

Crisis Knight
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Crisis Knight
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Consolidating power is key.

Gathering potential allies would only strengthen and reinforce the resolve among our own kind and could lead to further expansion and growth in the future while benefiting all involved parties.

Steve Brulé
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You may be interested in this commentary, inspired by Roosh’s visit to Canada in 2015. https://youtu.be/ZZaJ_cpK87M

jq747
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jq747
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I’ll no doubt comment more on this later.. but for now, it’s a step in the right direction. For too long Elam and Roosh (and many of their followers) have been flinging shit at each other, with no other result than making feminists chortle. I swear I can hear Futrelle’s jowls wobbling with laughter every time RoK takes a snipe at AVFM and vice versa, and Valenti needs to go stock up on Depends.

RoK and AVFM (and their sibling sites) bring something positive to the table, which is why I frequent both sites, even though I don’t take home 100% of everything written therein. It’s time we started acting like MEN instead of whiny brats. Ironically, it took a *woman* (in the form of Straughan) to inject some civility.. what does THAT tell you, gentlemen?

skillet
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skillet
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I actually like Judgy Bitch and Karen Straughn. But Paul Elam and his moderators are jerks. They kick everyone off their site for trivial BS.

I have been saying what I like for a year here. No problems. Even disagreed with Roosh a time or two on a couple of issues.

I have been kicked off Mother Jones, Raw Story, AVFM, Media Matters. Alternet, and more. I never used foul language or threats. They just did not like my reasoning.

Judgy Bitch has never even deleted one of my posts, so she is cool. Roosh also has let all my posts stand.

My favorite MRA’s are Roosh and Judgy Bitch. (Did not know that Roosh was not an MRA. Not sure I see the difference).

Masculist Man
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Masculist Man
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I’m a Men’s Rights Activist for over 20 years. I’ve worked on a lot of political campaigns for men’s rights as my blog will attest: http://mensrightsboard.blogspot.com/ I believe we can peacefully coexist. After all we are men we can reason. We have a common enemy in feminism. Let’s not forget that. Our beliefs: MRA,MGTOW and PUA can work together. Men may use MRA tactics to petition the government for address of grievances. PUA tactics when wanting to meet women and living the MGTOW lifestyle otherwise. I’ve discussed this in: http://mensrightsboard.blogspot.com/2014/07/definitions.html

skillet
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skillet
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Best part of interview. Roosh and self-reliance. Part of me cringes when Paul Elam starts talking about how men need equal access to this or that service.

Not that he is wrong.

But a better struggle would be having fewer services for all. More self reliance. Paul Elam thinks like a leftist who wants to kick folks out of his safe space. But I will admit that in a cultural marxist context like a university, Paul Elam and Sage Gerard are doing good work.

But a rugged individualist like Roosh and a bureaucratic machine counselor type like Elam will never get along.

I also work in the public sector. But I aspire to get the hell out and set up a self-reliant homestead. Have a buddy who is all about being your perfect counselor. Happy within the confines of the machine.

We don’t hang out as much as before. When he first came over, saw my lay-out of homegrown organic food as a classy thing. But as soon as he picked up on the libertarian motivation, he started to keep his distance a little.

Liberals have a strong need to be surrounded by Brave New World types who pay homage to the prevailing ideology and notions of establishment norms.

BUt I have heard him mention here and there how he feels a need to better assert his masculine side.

ZioFascist
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ZioFascist
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hard to uncuck a cuck..

Veni Vidi Vici
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Veni Vidi Vici
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My biggest issue with the “Men’s Right Movement” is the various groups ( Voice For Men and National Coalition For Men ) allow women members. Maybe women could be supporting members or guest contributors but not full members or hold key leadership positions. Now is a good time for the various Men’s groups to work together for the common good and stop bickering like a bunch of women.

Masculist Man
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Masculist Man
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Agreed. That is why on my blog: http://mensrightsboard.blogspot.com/
there are no female moderators and they’ll never be. This is our movement.

greyghost1
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greyghost1
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MRA’s, PUA, and MGTOW fighting each other is no different than cooks, infantry, and artillery men fighting each other.

skillet
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skillet
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I see on AVFM that Roosh and Elam will have a talk. I hope the subject comes up about the hypersensitivity of some of the MRA folk on AVFM. They act like women. They are great for promoting men’s rights within a NWO cultural maarxist context. So on a university campus, a lot of the work Sage Gerard does is good.

Problem is, I do not want to live in the mangina-esque Brave New World where we all compete to be coddled by the government.

Social security for retired workers, good. But beyond that, no more social engineers. Grassroots can handle that.

With some guns, gardens, gold, farmers markets, freedom of thought and religion. Even on his site of AVFM, there is very little room for discussion except within narrow parameters.

FOr 6 months I posted there and people liked my post. Disagreed about male circumscision because of religion.

Out of there. It just looks to me like the dude has been in the academia and counseling environment so long that he has a very insular “trigger and safe space” mentality.

Like women with excess estrogen hysteria. My concern is that he is teaching men to act like women in order to get equal treatment as women.

Paul Elam needs to hear some hard truths like that.

THe world is still better off with his site than without it. But I like the women on his site better than the men. Straugn is cool. (And she would even be pretty with long hair).

JB is very cool. I also likje that Fiamengo. And I am glad Sage is kicking ass with his movements.

But the men there still are trying to toot their victim credentials. Seems unmanly to me. Righteous victim culture is what is wrong here in the 1st place.

RooshBangsFarmAnimals
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RooshBangsFarmAnimals
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pick up artists? so….you create private meets between pathetic, end of their rope males who have exhausted their netflix queue because they have no friends to hang with, and put them in a room with other pathetic males with exhausted netflix queues, and talk about ways to pick up chicks. sorry guys, wish I could make it but this drug addicts anonymous class sounds a lot more fun filled and energetic.

after the meet though, and when you go back to your bassments and jack off towels..just remember..rooshs dad touched his private parts. stop conding his lash outs. embrace him. someone be there for his crying. you’re all a bunch of cold hearted animals. CANT YOU HEAR HIM CRYING..?

White Cis Male
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meanwhile the thing that helps the most is MGTOW…

Tom
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Tom
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Did I have a stroke? Karen is a woman right?

JewsAllover
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JewsAllover
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Dont want that sheat