Neomasculine Dialogue: “A New Beginning”

The following dialogue took place between myself (RV) and Quintus Curtius (QC) on May 28, 2015.

RV:

For an idea that is less than three months old, neomasculinity is getting a lot of exposure, and some of it has been quite heated, with even conspiratorial accusations levied against it. I did not expect such emotions.

QC:

Men commonly react with hostility to things that challenge their preconceptions. The congregation enjoys being berated, but less often enjoys being reformed. Meaningful doctrines are rarely built by committees or by the consensus of many; rather, they flow as output from the creative individual. We do not construct our worldviews around the opinions of the masses, but rather out of a consideration of the laws of history. The provenance of speculative thought is not to be found in the herd.

I found it amusing to hear the complaint that we were not advocating something “original.” What a strange statement! In the ethical and moral realms, very little is new except arrangement. Only a fool or a lunatic is completely original. And why is this? It is because it is difficult to be completely original without also being wrong. What has been proven true by experience also shows what is demonstrably false. The originality is found in the presentation of old ideas to new audiences, and this is something that requires skill. The originality of neomasculinity lies in the fact that it is both “progressive” and “retrogressive”: it looks back in time for the principles that have endowed men with worldly greatness, and at the same time, it looks forward to adapt those principles to the needs of the modern man.

The neomasculist ethic is the offspring of both old and new: the old elements are the traditional virtues of the past, such as stoicism, the acceptance of struggle, advanced problem solving, breaking through barriers, and the submerging of the identity in the idealistic pursuit of a goal. The new elements are simply the flexible, tactical means of achieving these traditional goals. And yet at heart it remains a corrective movement, in the sense that it seeks to restore a proper balance to a wildly unbalanced state of affairs.

RV:

While you would hate to see firm attacks against an idea you know is an improvement, it would be even more strange if there was no criticism at all. If something you introduced did not rouse the emotions of at least some men, that suggests you were taking a safe step to the side instead of one step forward, for it’s forward movement that causes anxiety. It is not always pleasant to think of the future and the changes that are coming.

I see two big problems with the existing groups. The first is that they are unable to see beyond the tips of their noses. They usually have a firm grasp on the problems of today, but are not looking ahead, not even one year into the future. How quickly people forget the changes we have endured in the past ten years! But of course you would have to be thinking carefully of those problems for the past ten years, and based on that, make reasonable predictions of what will happen in the next ten. Existing groups were essentially ad-hoc, created spontaneously by the crowd with no defined purpose and no elders to navigate through the combustive cultural changes we’re experiencing. I fail to see how they can adapt.

The second problem I noticed is that they don’t give solutions that are sustainable. Game is an individual solution that will see less long-term benefits if the quality of women keep declining. Not only are you competing with more game-aware men, but you are competing for women who are getting more obese and deranged and seem to be more interested in virtual living through their smartphones than meeting decent men. Even expatriating is seeing less effectiveness as second and third-world countries become more Westernized.

Game and self-improvement is the individual solution, but without societal solutions that can also be applied, or solutions that are directly applied to women themselves, the decline will be so rapid that within only five years we may find ourselves in a situation where it will be difficult for men to improve their lot.

QC:

Virtuous men are those who take positive action to solve problems. They do not hide from the responsibilities of life behind a protective embankment of negativity.

Diagnosis is one-half of action; the other half is the cure. To go beyond merely identifying the ills of society, to hammering out a comprehensive individual solution: herein lies the great advance of neomasculinity over other systems of thought. It is sometimes necessary to robe old truths in contemporary garments, so that they may be more readily acceptable to men who do not have the leisure or inclination for speculative thought.

And I agree with your point about Westernization happening on a global scale. It is proceeding apace even now; soon it will be necessary for every man to arm himself with some form of neomasculine principles simply in order to maintain his sanity.

An unmoored generation finds itself caught in the turbulent interval between the collapse of the old world, and the advent of the new; the previous generations resigned themselves to corruption and luxury, and failed in their duty to protect the culture from the inroads of barbarism. Our ideas will become part of the new world which is currently taking shape. By helping create a cadre of men imbued with proper ways of thinking and conduct, we will be able to shape our environment. We aim to banish feelings of powerlessness, and inculcate in men a spirit of positive action.

RV:

You said that our ideas will become a part of the new world, but is this too optimistic? There is a part of me that is reluctant to cling onto hope, and while I wouldn’t be embarking on this new path if I didn’t have at least some hope that we can make the future better, lately I’m finding myself having to close my eyes and ears to the daily degradations the enemy is levying on our society.

Every day I can point out two news stories. The first shows us making one step forward, where someone, somewhere, unexpectedly resists the tide, and then the next story arrives and it’s three steps backwards. All progress wiped out. Just the other day I read a story out of New York where two men were arrested on the subway for having their legs too far open, which just a couple months ago was the latest feminist attempt to criminalize male behavior. Two men were legally punished for a trifling feminist cause, and this is disheartening.

But I will say that even if you told me there is no hope, and that we will only change one male life, I wouldn’t stop teaching the cure that is needed, because unlike so many other men, I can’t “enjoy” the decline. I can’t enjoy a city or a woman with the knowledge that in a short time this enjoyment will become impossible. In that case it may be better not to enjoy it at all.

Fighting is the only option, until the very end. With neomasculinity we must put forward the solutions, as intelligently and clearly as we can and then pray for a little good fortune that the wind will fill our sails and move our boat through turbulent waves to affect the world in a way that merely doing nothing does not.

QC:

Yes, this is well and truly said. It is understandable, and perhaps forgivable, that many of our brothers see a voluntary withdrawal from society as almost the only rational course. And no doubt, those looking for daily examples of injustice can find them all too easily. They are all around us: evil is of old date, and multiplies with geometric fury. Yet defeatism is unbecoming of a man.

History is replete with examples of minorities acting, against unfavorable odds, as the catalysts for positive change. The truth cannot be denied forever: an edifice built on a foundation of sand must, sooner or later, obey the inescapable laws of historical gravity. Remember that the greatest mass movements in history were begun by a conviction born of blind faith, supported by the winds and currents of fortune. We go the way that our convictions take us, and adopt the assurance born of instinct. Even modest success can be achieved just by showing men that there is an explanation for their predicament, and a prescription for their health.

And as you say, some men are constitutionally incapable of kow-towing to what they know to be lies and hypocrisy. At some point, a stand must be taken; at some point, lines must be drawn in the sand, or else there will be nothing left to defend. We also know—if I can paraphrase a famous Churchill quote here—groups that go down without a fight never rise again; and those groups which exert their zealous energies to advance their causes always rise again.

Positive labor in the service of a noble ideal is never wasted. There is always something that can be done, and there is always one more thing left to do. We refuse to abdicate our responsibility to preserve the ethics and culture of our civilizational heritage. We will not let their lies and corruptions go unchallenged. Certain things we cannot accept, and will never accept.

RV:

The balance, I believe, is to propose the big solutions for the future while teaching men the individual solutions for the present, because if we were to be honest, it’s highly unlikely that all our present problems will be pleasantly and smoothly resolved within our lifetimes. Judging from my travels through Europe, we still have a way to go before the bottom is hit.

For men who want to start a family, there is a clock working against them, so sitting and waiting is not acceptable. We must help these men figure out how to realize their needs. At the same time, there are younger men who are filled with testosterone and cannot be bothered to think in terms of family. Instead, they want to fornicate to relieve a sex urge that, if not fulfilled, can be debilitating to a man’s normal functioning.

While it will be far easier to help the vigorous man than the one who has passed his sexual peak, they will both be served by neomasculinity. A reader may see a contradiction of using game to serve the young man while advocating for tradition on the older, and how game, when applied for ego gratification or entertainment, can be corrupting, but it must be understood that in the modern era, the man without serious game practice won’t even be able to find and keep a woman to create a family with. Game is the big metal gate through which men must pass to experience what their fathers and grandfathers so easily did.

We may have to segment men based on the stages of life they are in, the “young” neomasculist who seeks practical advice to improve his life, and the “old” neomasculist who seeks deeper meaning and understanding. It seems to me that serving the young will be far easier than the old.

QC:

Every stage of a man’s life will be adequately served by the neomasculist core principles. Every man will project on to these principles that which serves him best. For just as children born from the same parents may acquire different looks and mannerisms, so too does each person contain within him perennial movements of the passions, and individual qualities, that may make him emphasize one point of neomasculist doctrine over another.

Especially important for us is to ground our doctrines on actual experience. Francis Bacon warned us that error can arise from three sources: “idols of the tribe” (fallacies common to all men), “idols of the cave” (shortcomings in an individual man), and “idols of the market-place” (errors that arise from a man’s interactions with others). In your neomasculinity article, you were careful to derive each principle not from theory, but from actual practice. I believe this is important.

What is also important is that now, at least, we have a comprehensive guide that offers a realistic alternative to what is presented to us by the mass media. At least now there is a program of action, however imperfect it may be. Even the most intrepid travelers need a guide. Our goal, I think, should be that neither worldly cares, journeys, or ill health should ever hinder us from practicing these principles. Success in these matters seems to come more from diligent practice and study, than from an inheritance from Nature.

What, may I ask, do you find to be the most encouraging signs you now see, as far as the popular culture is concerned?

RV:

The main encouraging sign I see is that the establishment has lost its stranglehold upon their controlled bullhorn. The fact that our dialogue will be read by thousands of men within a month of its publication is proof that “dangerous” ideas can quickly, efficiently, and cheaply find the minds of men who value them. If the establishment was still the sole gatekeeper to media publishing like they were before the internet, our reach could only be locally based, perhaps within a small men’s club, but now it’s global. This tells me that the internet, for all of its disruptive influence, is the main tool we have in exposing corruption and lies, and without it this conversation may not have even taken place.

The upside leads to an immediate downside: we’re not the only ones releasing ideas. With so much media content being published by both the establishment and independent creators, there is tough competition to grab a person’s attention in the face of unlimited options, and the fact that we’ve already been attacked shows that other groups don’t want us speaking to their existing followers. This means that, ironically, we’ll at some point have to mimic media establishment tactics to create more appealing offerings that make us more like them. When men encounter an article or video on the internet, they make a snap judgement on its presentation, and if that judgement says “amateur quality” then we have lost a key opportunity.

While it’s tempting to jump into things with big plans, I’m certain we should move slowly. For every idea we put out there, we must listen to men and see what their thoughts and concerns about it are. Yet there still has to be some friction to what we’re presenting, because only through conflict and debate can the right ideas and arguments rise to the top, and have them last for generations.

QC:

This is most certainly true. It seems to me that a suitable analogy can be found in how the muscular contractions of the human heart push oxygenated blood through the body. This systole and diastole of debate over ideas will act to circulate neomasculist doctrines within the collective body of our readership, in the same way that the beating of the heart circulates blood in the human body.

And with regard to ideas, yes, what is unfamiliar requires time to assimilate. Experience and time will reveal what is acceptable and useful, and what is not.

What is most important is that men remain steady and confident in the face of the great external challenges that are almost daily imposed on them. They must remember that they are the bearers of a great tradition, and the inheritors of an esteemed mantle. Man was created for great things, and he must make his way in reliance on this fact. We should be mindful of Cicero’s words in his treatise “On Laws” (I.7.22): “The animal we call man, who has foresight, wisdom, perspicacity, sharpness, memory, and a bounty of reason and counsel, was created by the supreme deity for a supreme position. Of all the living beings in nature, he is the only one who partakes of nature’s reason.”

This to me conveys our responsibility admirably. I know of nothing that has as much power to console as the contemplation of this idea.

RV:

While it will be hard to remain steady in the face of rapid change never before seen in the history of humanity, let us now do our best to provide the guidance and knowledge that men need to survive these times. I hope we retain both the strength and energy to improve the lives of men for decades to come.

Read Next: The Ethical Principles Of Neomasculinity

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Laguna Beach Fogey
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Good work, you two. Keep it up.

Andrea
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Andrea
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This type of dialogue between men is promising and reassuring. However, the type of game that may appeal to the young neomasculinist indirectly fosters the pump and dump dynamic that leads to the pain felt, later in life, by the mature and experienced man. Wouldn’t it be good to guide the young lad by encouraging him to seek sexual fulfillment with a quality over quantity approach early on? I have two young sons and I will expose them to the ideologies presented here but will definately never advocate for them to use game as a tool to use women’s bodies as mere objects of pleasure. I will teach them that sex with an emotional or mental connection is what they should pursue to experience genuine ecstasy.

Bob Hughes
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it doesn’t work that way for men. men require principles, not emotion. if the environment were different and men did not have to fear divorce rape, then a man could become involved with a woman on an emotional level, but in today’s environment that is the kiss of death for a man. a young lad is better served by the teachings of Roosh.

Duke
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This is what I don’t get. Why do men have to get married if they get emotionally involved. Isn’t there a way to do that without committing?

Bob Hughes
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wha??? I don’t believe men need to get married when they become emotionally involved with a female. I said men don’t need to get emotionally involved with a woman when they have sex with her.

Duke
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Duke
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Wrote by Bob Hughes: ” if the environment were different and men did not have to fear divorce
rape, then a man could become involved with a woman on an emotional
level”

Maybe You meant something else but this is what you wrote. Why would you fear divorce rape if not married in the first place? I think that
men can’t avoid getting emotionally involved period when dealing with women their attracted to.

Bob Hughes
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My words are crystal clear; I haven’t a clue why you are confused. I’m just too tired to repeat myself. If you can’t figure it I’m sorry.

me
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me
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I think what he meant is that without equitable marriage on the books enforcing his rights, there is no benefit for a man to get emotionally involved with a woman.

I don’t necessarily agree with this position, but it can certainly be argued.

66Scorpio
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The legal environment in Canada is such that if you have a relationship that looks like a marriage – even if you choose to not get married – and that goes on for 2 years then BOOM, a judge can say you are married and you can then get divorce raped.

mclovin89
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think its 6 months now to be common law

66Scorpio
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It depends. I am not a practicing lawyer so you can’t take this as gospel. It think it can be six months for certain employment or government benefits. After a year you can be tagged for child support if your squeeze has kids from another guy. The two years figure comes out of the provincial family laws to trigger such things as spousal support (ie alimony) and property division.

Morrison
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It will get to the point where if you simply date for a few months thay will be considet defacto marriage.

Jim Trompe
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Jim Trompe
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There is always some way to protect yourself. If law abiding becomes a liability, then don’t follow the law. Cash only deals, hide the assets from the beginning. But Jesus when are people going to give some push-back against these insane laws.

66Scorpio
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66Scorpio
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The push back is here, discussing game and with people like me, Roosh and Matt Forney who say “fuck this” to western women and society generally. Realistically, the Manosphere is maybe 10% of all men, and among them maybe 10% actually do something about it.
.
The other route is to get into the Men’s Rights Movement and try to change the legal environment. I think that is laudable but futile.

GRock
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Certainly. An LTR. True long term, non-marriage break ups, barring common law marriages, are nearly as tragic as a marriage, sometimes worse in the emotional sense. There was nothing “forcing” them to stay together as long as finances and living situations weren’t involved.

Side note: I know of literally NO LTR that has lasted past a few years where the couple didn’t live together. The idea of faithful coexistence with no strings except emotions just doesn’t seem to work. Too bad, because it would be magical if society could operate that way, but not necessarily conducive to tradition.

In that sense, it boils down to this for me, you just can’t trust a huge majority of women that much… unless they’re rejected carousel riders with few options.

ShepardSays
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If I had sons and knew they learned game as a way to lie and manipulate women I would be disappointed in them. If I had daughters and knew they used their looks to lie and manipulate men I would be disappointed in them.

Snowden
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Snowden
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All women use their looks and lie to manipulate men. You’re literally doing it right now. Want to stop taking advantage of your looks “looks”? Remove your picture and change your name to something androgynous. And for fucks sake don’t start any comments with, “as a woman”.

Solipsism is real.

jdoeford
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Existing and having a photo ain’t lying.
Is makeup lying? We all know women regularly wear makeup, it’s there to be seen on their faces. I wouldn’t like it if women *stopped* wearing makeup, it’s nice to look at.
Not comparable to going up to a stranger and lying to them. I’d never want a woman to do that to me.

Rationalization for bad behavior is real, too.

Morrison
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“All women use their looks and lie to manipulate men”

The females in this discussion are under some delusion that women don’t play men for suckers.

Well ‘Ladies’ we have news for you: men are getting more privy to your bullshit. Endgame for you.

GRock
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Nothing joys me more than delivering essentially that exact message to an ex that strayed and she expects to weasel her way back in after I dumped her.

Morrison
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Morrison
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Yeah I hear ya. What does ngtow mean? It means this ladies:
http://oi58.tinypic.com/2n8afth.jpg

GRock
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Woman:”I’m not sure I believe you.”
Me:”You’re wearing make up, your very presence before me is a lie.”

66Scorpio
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I am not aware of anything that Roosh has advocated that amounts to lying. “Manipulate” is a more subjective term.

jdoeford
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Allow me to present…Roosh’s “Moral Argument for Lying to Women.”

http://www.rooshv.com/the-moral-argument-for-lying-to-women

This is not the only post where he talks about how he regularly lies to women, just probably the most straightforward.

66Scorpio
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That post would have been a few months before. I started following Roosh, ROK or the whole red pill manosphere thing, which would be why I missed it. Good find.
.
However, it is not particularly straight forward. It comes down to three points as to when a guy SHOULD lie to a girl:
1) the lie helps to advance the relationship in terms of intimacy; and
2) the lie will enhance the relationship for both parties once it becomes intimate; and,
3) the lie won’t harm the emotional well-being of either party once the relationship and/or intimacy ends.
.
There are a whole bunch of problems with this on a number of levels. However, for anyone not examining it with a close philosophical eye, or taking a religious perspective which requires that one must never lie (in other words, probably 90%+ of the general population) people appear to be ok with this sort of situational ethics because people do it all the time, women as well as men, in various social contexts not just limited to sexual relationships.

jdoeford
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I mean, can you interpret what Roosh wrote in the most charitable way possible to make it seem somewhat benign? I suppose. Are there unusual occasions where it’s OK to lie? Yeah, but that’s not what’s going on here. In the context of everything else Roosh says and does, it’s pretty clear he’s simply writing a rationalization for why it’s OK that he regularly lies to women in order to get laid:

“I don’t see a moral problem with lying to women for sex as long as one condition is held: you consider yourself a good man. If a girl’s life will be somehow enhanced by your lie in that she will get to experience something pleasurable or positive, I don’t see the lie as immoral. . . .

Since I consider myself a good man overall, who brings rays of sunshine into a woman’s life (I have testimonials if you want to see them), I have the moral authority to lie to women in order to gain intimacy with them.”

So Roosh (who holds women in contempt) gets to decide to lie to women to fuck them (“gain intimacy”), because he calls himself a “good man.” In fact it’s actually good for the women! (Even though, according to Roosh in other blog posts, women shouldn’t be slutting it up.)

It’s not philosophy, it’s just a really poor rationalization for bad behavior.

GRock
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Man:”So you say you’ve slept with 10 men before me?”
Girl:”Yes, only 10″ < when it's actually 35.
A man actually has to conscionably think about lying to a woman. With women, it's almost undeniably automatic. Solipsism is ingrained, yet we don't even blame the girls for their naturally hypergamous ways, just recognize it for what it is. Guys are privy to this more and more, simply by watching their actions not match their words.

So for all the egalitarian b.s. shoved in our faces re. gender differences, the occasional lie, not intended to hurt the woman in any way, still doesn't come close to competing with the 24/7 lies 95% of women tell, often hidden in "half truths," so the lie is easier to tell with a straight face.

Most of the time with most guys, you're getting the blunt truth. Most the time with most women, you're getting half-truths at best, if not full out lies. In walks game as the great equalizer, and game is NOT close to being ALL lies for men, but rather bold actions, with calculable results.

Jim Trompe
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Ha yeah its like every girl ..I’m almost a virgin, I’ve only been with like one other guys. Meanwhile she jumped in bed with you the first night. Pinky swear, its never happened before.

66Scorpio
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I wasn’t really interpreting what he was saying, I was summarizing it. As I said, he wasn’t straight forward but rather all over the place and he did spend a lot of time about the downsides of lying.
.
Roosh is contemptuous of the behaviour of a lot of women but not a misogynist.
.
The vast majority of people make these kind of rationalizations all the time. The secular western ethos amounts to little more than “I’m a good person and not out to hurt anyone so whatever I do is ok.” Pick 100 women at random: how many would actually demonstrate ethical principles any better than Roosh? And how many don’t rationalize their bad behaviour.

ShepardSays
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I love how you choose your words. Here, lemme fix it for you:

1)the lie helps the situationship for both parties once it becomes sexual; and,
2)the lie will enhance the situationship for both parties once it becomes sexual, and,
3) the lie won’t harm the emotional well-being of either party once the situationship and/or sex ends.

Come on, let’s stop beating around the bush. Men don’t lie to women to convince them to meet their parents or marry them. They lie to get laid.

CrazyCauckz
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I never had to lie to get laid. I really find that a childish move.

Jim Trompe
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I find that people are more impressed when you feel that you don’t need to lie about things. Courage is an attractive attribute.

66Scorpio
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Fair point, but I think I was just using the words that Roosh used in his article. Everyone lies about everything to get what they want, both men and women for sex, money, status or whatever. I don’t present Roosh as a paragon of moral virtue but I have to say that his personal ethics are no worse than 90%+ of the general population. The feminist narrative that he is a rapist or rape teacher or rape rape rape anything is absurd.
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Keep in mind that this forum is largely about getting laid, so your re-edit comes as no surprise. There is no beating around the bush: the bush is beaten daily.

Jim Trompe
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Its Pollyana shit to not realize that lies and even just “spin” are a normal part of life. Some of the most exciting places are built on lies. Creativity is a lie. You are thinking up something that has never existed. Fiction, movies are a lie, playing the game of what if? There are people who will ask you a question who very clearly don’t want the truth, and it wont be in your best interest to tell the truth either…so why the hell would you tell the truth in that situation? I’ve also been to places were lies are nonexistant and reputation is everything. Jesus those are the most boring places ever.

66Scorpio
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66Scorpio
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There is a deeper question as to “what is a lie”?

Taco Idol
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Taco Idol
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You must be disappointed in the entire attractive female population then because that’s how it works on planet Earth.

Morrison
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ShepardSays
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Not what I was referring to in regards of women lying and manipulating men. What I meant were women who go out with a man as a “date for dinner” or the blatant gold diggers. There is a difference between influencing a men and outright manipulating them for a one sided selfish gain.

CrazyCauckz
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Women in Toronto commonly complain men won’t approach them. LMAO It’s clearly they are gold digger just question of which levels. Even the professional women expect men to take them out. Women wanted equality so they can pay their own fuck’in way. My own step sister didn’t put a dime to her wedding. Sure her hubby made more however she didn’t even pitch in. But hey she was always a selfish bitch.

Mrs. P
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So your wicked stepsister is a selfish person. My parents and myself( I am a woman) paid for our wedding. I was the one who held the high paying job at that time…

CrazyCauckz
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CrazyCauckz
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RooshV has game? LOL He couldn’t even laid in Toronto! hahaha
Shit I could teach men how to approach women for free.

Jim Trompe
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“Game” isn’t lying its an understanding of what truly interests and excites women. Manipulation is a questionable word. If I make a donut and sell it to you, have I pulled your strings and “manipulated” you to buy it? If I talked to you in ways that excited you and you eagerly jumped into bed with me, is it manipulation or is it giving you exactly what you wanted to get exactly what I wanted as in the example of the donuts? I have no idea where this fantasy came from where you should just do what you would normally do, and the things you want and need will just show up one day. Nothing could be further from the reality of the world.

GRock
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Think of it this way Andrea. The game that’s taught here allows a man, young or old, new to neamasculinity or vets of the general tenants, to ascribe a opportunity cost analysis on an individual basis of women, granularized into individual interactions. It also, lends itself to some of the actionable foundations of neomasculinity. If a woman presents herself as an object, void of value beyond her loins, and man then can choose to treat her like the object she portrays, and fuck her, or move on. Game is what provides the option of that decision to arise.

Guys with no game don’t usually even get the chance to make those choices. If a man finds a woman whose value exceeds beyond her objectified self, he may then, with great care, decided to begin a somewhat traditional “relationship,” with emotions attached should he choose. The reality is, most guys with no game and slight understanding of neomasculinity will have a scarcity mentality, get cuckolded by a girl for months, to finally screw the girl, they then fall in love with. every. single. time. And get totally fucked while she acts a perfected role to extract from him every last thing of value she can. This isn’t just individual women Andrea, it’s indoctrinated feminization of the entire world we’re dealing with being forced upon society, not just suggested anymore. The overall value of the aggregate of women is dropping for men like us. Unfortunately, women are too stupid and emotionally led, to realize they’ll probably be in worse shape than men when the smoke clears.

Bavieca
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99% of nubile white females won’t give your sons any time of the day let alone any emotional or mental connection if your sons are below 5’5″. But let us rejoice instead of despair, for that height thing is not set in stone, many short wealthy dudes can more than secure emotional or mental connection with women. Heck, even a “curvy” man is able find true love and emotionally-charged meaningful sex connection with his soulmate.

66Scorpio
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Yep.

Andrea
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Funny

66Scorpio
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While I find the information and discussion about “game” interesting that is never what attracted me to Roosh, his ideas, and the guys at ROK. Rather, it was the grappling with the decline in western society.
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But to answer your point directly, my ethic – and I only figured this out as a man moving into my 40s – is to make your next girlfriend your last girlfriend. Obviously, it has not worked out that way and over the course of several years I have had several girlfriends, but the quality went way up and I don’t have any regrets about “junk food sex” like I did when I was a younger man. I loved, I lost, and I moved on.
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I don’t know how old your sons are but certainly teach them to never waste time on worthless PEOPLE (male or females). Invest time in quality people who have virtue and pay it forward.
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Don’t fuck sluts! Pussy can be as addictive as crack cocaine, and once you start it is hard to stop. Look for ambrosia. Go on a unicorn hunt. I have travelled half way around the world to find what I am looking for, but I don’t think that western civilization is a complete write off yet.
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Just say no! Embrace the idea that IDGAF and put it into practice.

Taco Idol
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Taco Idol
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Men are not sexual camels like women pretend to be (women just hide their bangs). It’s like asking a woman to go a year or two without a smart phone, nice clothes, or social acceptance…very uncomfortable. What your illogical, politically correct ass is doing is training your boys to get “one-itis” of the highest degree. They’re going to be kings of the friendzone watching the girls that they initially attracted get piped by other dudes who give those girls the bad boy tingles.

Experienced dick buzzards (aka modern western females) will see their bottled sexual thirst and feed off of anything your boys have that can be extracted from them.
I treated women with respect all through my younger years. It only led me to horrible, emotionally painful rejections. Now, I still get rejected from time to time, but I also have times where I get accepted. The difference? These days I treat women like the insecure, physically weak creatures that they are, and I don’t care how they feel. Women who are not your mother do not care anything about a man or his suffering. You should stop displaying own-group-preferrence and simply advise the father of your boys to give them advice on females. Only men can raise men. Be a mother and keep them fed and loved. Let a man teach them about what men must endure.

Jim Trompe
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Jim Trompe
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There is a good reason for men in families, they can teach their sons the way through masculinity that women never had to experience. A nieve feminist will tell her sons “never lie to women” . Where the father will tell him, son never try to point out all your flaws to a woman, its unattractive. In fact if you act like the biggest man in the room even though you are 5’5″ it actually makes you more attractive.

Dheeraj
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Dheeraj
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To become good with one woman, you have to be good with other women as well. That is the way it is and I don’t design the rules.
Don’t hate the player, hate the game

jbird669
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jbird669
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Very good work by both of you and I appreciate you sharing. I agree it’s easier to help the younger, vigorous man, don’t forget that some past their peak didn’t have the opportunity to visit sites like this to avoid becoming victims of this progressive, women-centric, SJW-heavy society. I think there’s a big segment of men that feel underrepresented and a market exists to cater to them.

intplayer
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intplayer
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I’ve been toying with the idea of establishing a neomasculine fraternity in my country.

In my student career, I felt a need for: a tribe devoted to self development, lively political discussion, peers on the same journey as I, a place where virtue could be developed, a club where people would debate and actually read books, a place where I could philosophize about life, a group that actually cared about changing the world.

What I found was: feminized study associations where the men kissed up to women and women where a majority in the boards. Fraternities with no message or tradition save drinking beer and partying (to be fair, nothing wrong with that per se). There were no institutions that could offer satisfaction to my higher consciousness needs.

I think there would be an actual market for a neomasculine/self development/game fraternity. In the literal sense a fraternity is simply a brotherhood. And what topic can be more interesting for a man, than the topic of finding virtue, developing himself, setting goals, receiving mentorship from his betters and finding pride in satisfying his tribal needs of being part of something greater than himself.

It would be interesting to see you and QC offer guidance to people who want to take this neomasculine ideology and create institutions to support it.

JuicyJones
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JuicyJones
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Was thinking of something similar myself. All good and valid points about the current state or organizations out there for men. Fraternities are organizations of men forming a brotherhood, but there tends to be no mission objective than alcohol and women. While both are good in moderation, it leaves one wanting more than just those two qualities, such as the self-improvement objectives of neomasculinity.

NonCanadian
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NonCanadian
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Neomasculinity should not be a rocket science. Most people would not have time, interest or desire to read such a long text. I’ll be honest-I did not finish it myself.
The ideology should be very simple, attractive and straight forward. Nobody is gonna read a million of words but sure would pay attention to 10-20 catchy phrases.
99% of modern males are lacking leadership skills, self respect, guts to have an own opinion and enough arguments to back them up, sporty looks, courage to stand up and be counted, to differ from the mainstream and to lead by example!
That’s all! That’s exactly what neomasculinity should be about!

Tom Kaye
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Tom Kaye
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Rhetoric vs. Dialectic.

Slogans are normally tools of propaganda inviting the masses to turn off their brains and act without thinking. However, they can be the cogent expressions of codified wisdom, such as aphorisms or proverbs. We would need to make sure those we are reaching/leading aren’t just mouthing the words without understanding the concepts. It is not our goal to become the new politburo of an ignorant and manipulated mass. Neomasculinity must be a movement of ideas first and foremost.

NonCanadian
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NonCanadian
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Movement? YES. But every movement should have some cornerstones it’s based on just like I’ve mentioned above. And only those who are intellectually able to understand the grassroots of the movement should have the right to “join” it.

66Scorpio
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66Scorpio
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The simplicity is to be the best man that you can be. Roosh focuses on game as the means and ways to test yourself as a man. However, he seems to be moving away from that on one level or another.

Imprevist
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Imprevist
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Time to release a credible and polished documentary Roosh, along the lines of Michael Moore and have it spread like wildfire, promoting ideas and denouncing the establishment for what it really is. This I believe will do more to expose Neomasculinity more than simply writing about it. People have short attention spans, are too distracted, or simply don’t read. Time to imply clown game on all fronts…people will watch it but hardly read it.

NonCanadian
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NonCanadian
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…and that’s a VERY good idea indeed!! Roosh ain’t gonna accomplish much by just blogging or writing on this Forum whereas a documentary will give him a bigger exposure and promotion for his ideas and views!
And YES , again, people hardly read ANYTHING these days. All they want is a two liner under a photo of yet another Hollywood celebrity gossip.

Imprevist
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Absolutely, and although a project of such magnitude might seem a bit far-fetched considering cost and labor, it would make the most impact and should be seen as a major long term goal (2-3 years).
For the time being, a professional podcast (with interviews, special guests) could also make an impact, something which can be downloaded via itunes and be listened to while at work, in the car or anywhere else one can’t access the internet. This would help gain steam and momentum in spreading the philosophy.

NonCanadian
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NonCanadian
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Correct! And options are indeed several. I don’t think that a solid long documentary would take up to 3 years to make, a year and a half sounds like a reasonable time frame considering the fact that Roosh already has a lot of information/material.
But he still should pay more attention to YouTubing his messages, yes, podcast is a very good idea.
Another thing is to make yet another move to a bigger cosmopolitan city and I see Moscow as a perfect choice.
Roosh could be a “celebrity” there in a positive way and opportunities are aplenty in Russia now.
Roosh needs a place which will give him energy cause I get a feeling now that Poland is sucking the energy and emotions from him.

Imprevist
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Imprevist
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I can attest to this, being from a large city and moving from downtown to the suburbs made a huge impact on my energy and state of mind, mainly in a negative way. We are definitely products of our environment.

NonCanadian
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NonCanadian
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That’s a given if Roosh really wants to promote his ideas and get into the spotlight. He ain’t gonna accomplish nothing from Poland and will get sucked into the routine sooner or later.
Remember-Moscow never sleeps! And Poland seems to be a country that always sleeps or at least snoozes.

66Scorpio
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66Scorpio
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It would take a year to lay the foundation and then a 30 day Kickstarter campaign to get the funding. Pre-production can be done in the meantime, production can be distributed or could be a whirlwind effort. Post production would be a couple of months to piece everything together.

Libertas
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Libertas
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“or solutions that are directly applied to women themselves”

This is why I think we need a companion “neofeminine” movement. While as men we must be dominant/strong and stoic/rational, the nurturing support of women in our corners will move us along further.

There’s enough red pill women out there to form the core of a “neofeminine” movement. That will be on them.

BlueBot22
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BlueBot22
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Do you think a movement created by and run by women would work?

me
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me
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If everybody ignores the man behind the curtain… 😉

JustAGuy
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JustAGuy
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Oh boy. Have you weighed the chances that it may just be possible that you two are reinforcing each others’ fantasies? Have you considered the possibility that when you write that women “are getting more obese and deranged and seem to be more interested in virtual living through their smartphones than meeting decent men”, that the concept of “decency” you are employing may be a little superficial, if not in fact indecent, and that the very clause in which you invoke this decency goes quite a long way to indicating just that? Just wondering.

Reason And Believing
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Reason And Believing
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Please, stop pretending , in your imagination, that either man just walked up to a fat woman and started to berate her for being on her smart phone.
How is opining on the terrible symptoms of he sad state of women today in any way indecent?
Ah, the ugly head of the post modern subjective rationale is rejected here, as it is in any sane environment.
You don’t get to go with the meaning in your head, The words here actually have an objective meaning of their own.

uncrowned
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uncrowned
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There is no reference here to the Enemy that has systematically dismantled Western civilisation and continues to do so unchecked, ever so until the abyss. Neo-masculinity is a deception. Redpill, PUA etc, are but lures into the devil’s work, on the opposite side of the coin of feminism etc. Seek all of you the balance under the dominion of God; fight under God’s banner, lest you yourselves fall into the same error of humanism that those you so despise.

GRock
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GRock
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This is the work of God. He’s entrusted us to find solutions and a fix, to do that requires exploring both sides of the extremes, which is where the middle ground and balance is established from. Amen.

Dooshkong
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Dooshkong
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Nuts pal. You’re nuts.

Dooshkong
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Dooshkong
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Zzzzzzzzz

AsnL
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AsnL
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So thithis is Roosh and his friend jerking each other off.? The quality of his writing has really gone down

mclovin89
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mclovin89
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILSbGFtE9pQ

western propaganda is hella strong were all under its spell. But good luck trying to beat it

BlueBot22
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BlueBot22
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I think Roosh is doing a good job at exposing it. I grew up thinking news was at least mostly fact, but seeing what happened on Dr. Oz and in Canada completely shattered that delusion.

Reason And Believing
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Reason And Believing
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I’m ready . There is no room for losing hope. The future is all we have.

Anonymous
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Anonymous
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So one of you talks a few paragraphs, the other quietly listens and the other responds with a few paragraphs of talk? Were you wearing fedoras and sipping wine whilst listening to Mozart by any chance?

Roosh
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Roosh
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Nope, we were smoking cigars and drinking scotch.

Brutus Maximus
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Brutus Maximus
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History repeats itself. Great civilizations have crumbled under their own depravity, no matter how advanced they were. You gotta wonder if this pattern is natural or induced. Is it some cosmic cycle or is a dark force plotting behind the scenes ? It took me years to accept the idea of satanic influence on society, but inversion of values is happening before our eyes. We have identified the agents of subversion and their legions of SJWs. They have the power, the medias and the governments in their hand. Pretty bleak yes, it seems millenials are doomed but like Quintus I think that a kindle can set the world on fire. Truth and natural order can never die, restoration will take time though, maybe a few generations. For the near future I can totally see a hunger games scenario, that’s where they’re dragging us. Only true masculinity will save us.

Binder
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Binder
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I agree with you, but here’s the thing; thanks to technology Marx’s ideologies will remain in the internet making accessible to everyone. Therefore it’ll merge a cycle. Causing a quicker degradation for each generation in society. Although, this doesn’t account for the role of politics. so, who knows what will happen

armenia4ever
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You mention it will take generations, but considering how many RP men in particular have sworn off the idea of children entirely – and not without cause considering the system and specifically no fault divorce – how will this happen?

Me and my soon to be wife plan to out-breed these SJW types and raise up children with both a strong NeoMasculine and Christian worldview, but we are among the few who plan that – both as millennials and those who have been exposed to Neo-Masculinity in general who are planning on having kids. (We already have one on the way.)

Brutus Maximus
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Brutus Maximus
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As long as this fake economy with its progress mantra is maintained, SJWs will win more and more victories. Bestiality, pedophilia and god knows what will go mainstream in the near future in the name of freedom. We often forget that this decadent west is a tiny portion of humanity. The answer could come from outside in unexpected ways. Call me a fool but I still believe that nature will correct devious things. A bit like plants defeating GMOs after a few generations and rewiring themselves back to normal. As a dad myself, I know it’s hard to undo the damage the school system has done to our kids. I have witnessed the suppression of boys’ natural instincts with rage and frustration. We can only be strong role models, teach critical thinking and pass the torch. When babies will be made in tubes and raised by the government like in Brave New World then we’re screwed.

Devin Ford
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Devin Ford
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Roosh, my man, you have lifted me out of the dark. Not singlehandedly but with the help of every collective opinion and comment or post on this blog. Two months ago I was too depressed to leave the house and too much a a bitch to take control of my life. I am now almost completely free of debt, persuing a career in journalisim, learning to work the stock market, half way decent at speaking spanish, gained about 5 pounds of muscle, dropped my body fat % gained the diciplne required for a good diet and workout plan, got laid twice this month, left my controlling wife, and moved from the east to west coast to persue a new life. Ive never felt so confident and powerfull in my life. Modern social concepts had degraded my mind and polluted my personality. Since the discovery of you’re blog through a post on YouTube about exercise I have met more personal goals in my life (in just two months!) Than I had in years before. I whole heartedly believe in this movement and will do what I can to impact it’s positive growth. Something needs to happen other than this blog, that is certain. This platform of communication is too limited in its reach. You can’t keep a big fish in a small bowl forever or eventually it dies of suffocation.

jdoeford
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jdoeford
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Any view of masculinity that embraces habitually lying to women just to get your dick wet is fucked. Very *un*manly, in my book. Part of being a man is being virtuous. There can be a lot of debate over what exactly that means…but certainly it doesn’t involve embracing lying. Or pursuing sex at all costs (which is really just enslavement to your base desires…basically gluttony, but with sex instead of food).

Reason And Believing
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Reason And Believing
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Please, your position is worse and makes women into subhumans , where they don’t have moral agency to decide for themselves, and thus no moral responsibility for their actions.

Крум Безстрашни
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Крум Безстрашни
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Women are indeed non-moral.

Mrs. P
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Mrs. P
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Murder- rape -theft, pediphilia,war..lol..you guys take the cake on morality. Kidding.
Without women men would self destruct

GRock
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GRock
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The game’s rigged. The military and the mob don’t allow lies for the most part, that’s why they actually work. In operation, they are supremely virtuous, in goals, not always.

Just 90 years ago in the U.S. they threw women in filthy insane asylums for adultery. left there to rot, while the man replaced her with an honest wife and went about his virtuous existence.

Leading by example doesn’t work on women, that’s been proven. What we’ve done is allowed this insanity to run rampant, and you’re concerned about men lying way less to women than they do daily?

Mrs. P
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Mrs. P
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What about the men who had mistresses ? Way more males than females cheated on their spouses back inthe good old days. Virtuous men? Blech and bs. Men have always been kept in check by women. We are the keepers of virtue.

Mrs. P
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Mrs. P
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Yep .thank goodness you got the memo. The rest here are clueless:

spicynujac
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spicynujac
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Sometimes I get tired of reading long articles on the internet. Roosh, come out with the video talk on masculinity please?

practicallyperfect
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practicallyperfect
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I was disappointed to see this post and its comments superseded so quickly by the next, although they both speak to what is an ongoing issue for the Red Pill and Neomasculinity. Community, not an ideological one but an authentic physical one. Sometimes it seems those of us who dwell in the manosphere are in a LDR, reluctant to take that chance and commit to real life. I commented about this over the last 6yrs on a few blogs and understandably it is a difficult topic to deal with, but these ideals we value and hold to as true will never find roots if we can not connect and form community.
I know that within a 40 mile radius I live in the same community as two Manosphere bloggers and several commentors, it would be great if we could support each other but fear keeps many of us in a constant state of isolated anonymity. The new audience, “the unmoored generation” (outstanding imagery) need a safe harbor to grow strong, can we provide it?