Outcome Independence Leads To Failure

I’ve been noticing a trend in self-help circles of being “outcome independent.” It’s when you don’t worry about the outcome and just put in the attempt and shrug your shoulders at the result. Outcome independence reminds me of kindergarten where you still got your gold star even if you didn’t accomplish anything.

Let me ask you this: were important men of history outcome independent?

Was Alexander the Great outcome independent when he decided to conquer the world?

Was Hitler outcome independent when he wanted to conquer Europe?

Was Theodore Roosevelt outcome independent when he wanted to be the most badass US president the country has ever seen?

Was Martin Luther King, Jr outcome independent when he wanted to eliminate segregation in the South?

What happened when these men suffered a set back to their goals? Did they say, “Oh, no problem, maybe I’ll have some better luck next time”? No, they got mad. They analyzed their mistakes, adjusted their strategy, and tried again until they succeeded.

My advice for you is to be outcome dependent. If you don’t succeed, you should get upset. You should feel down in the dumps. If do your ten approaches in the club and walk away empty handed, I don’t expect your head to be held up high. What went wrong? What can you change for next time? How will you use miserable feelings as fuel into getting what you want?

Understand that even the smartest of men come up with rationalizations to protect themselves. It’s hard to admit that you failed and came up short, but not doing so will put you farther from your goal. Separating your emotions from the desired result is a guaranteed way to rob yourself of a great motivating tool. Depend on the outcome and fight for it.

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Severian
Severian
7 years ago

I think the idea of being outcome independent is that you focus on what you are doing, rather than what you are getting.

Like in poker, even if you play your hand to the utmost of game theory, you might still loose, but as long as you play right and are outcome independent it doesn’t matter, because in the long run you will win.

Soltero en Madrid
7 years ago

I’ve come to like this philosophical posts :pika:

Starting Young & Aiming High

The “outcome independence” thing comes from RSD. My two wings who are RSD junkies have been calling me too outcome dependent for a while now. I think the real advice they should be giving is to not be needy and to not take it personally when girls flake

Invictus III
7 years ago

I think the whole idea of outcome independence deals with not coming off as try hard on the outside. If a woman senses that you are hell bent on getting the bang she’s less likely to be attracted. You can be outcome dependent but if it makes you look desperate you need to compartmentalize it. Give a fuck but don’t appear as though you give a fuck.

Joey Armstrong
Joey Armstrong
7 years ago

outcome independence is the opposite of reaction seeking. i think it’s a great thing. If you don’t take it personally when you get rejected you’ll be in a much better mindset for your next approach. also you’ll be a lot more fun and risk taking when you’re out approaching

qilimanjaro
qilimanjaro
7 years ago

Being outcome-independent with women is different from being outcome-independent with one’s life. The former helps, the latter doesn’t

Anonymous
Anonymous
7 years ago

I think Roosh could learn a lot from RSD philosophies.

Goes the other way too, RSD acolytes could learn a lot from reading a select few manosphere blogs.

3rd Millenium Men
7 years ago

I take it more as outcome independent on girls… don’t worry about not getting one in particular when you’re gaming a lot, because sometimes there’s nothing you can do to control it and you don’t want to get oneitis.

In all other parts of life… outcome dependence is critical.

Anonymous
Anonymous
7 years ago

To me it’s about distinguishing between the self-defeating / self-pitying attitude of “Oh I didn’t care if I fucked her anyway so it doesn’t matter”

vs. the attitude of “That sucked, rejection hurts but I’ll move on next time my Pepsi blue line bombs instead of hovering around liked a wounded hummingbird”.

The difference is how the mindset affects your future (in)actions.

ve
ve
7 years ago

This BS comes from people confusing how someone should act and how someone should think in order to accomplish their goals. You should always act like you don’t give a shit if any particular woman rejects you. But if your goal is to get laid, you should absolutely care if women are rejecting you, particularly if it’s happening routinely, so you can think about how to change that result.

I think it’s mainly keyboard jockeys spouting this feel-good shit anyway.

Rico
Rico
7 years ago

Roosh, you’re missing the point. You don’t just “shrug your shoulders” and never try again. You learn from the experience and use it to improve your performance the next time.

“Outcome Independence” just means don’t take rejection personally.

DAP
DAP
7 years ago

Even though I am a huge fan of Outcome Independence; I think it’s okay to be Outcome Dependent as long as it doesn’t turn you into an obsessive head-case of nerves. Outcome Independence is great as long as you’re not phoning-it-in and giving a half-ass effort to win.

DAP
DAP
7 years ago

Also, Outcome Dependence is needed when you want to win things like wars. Outcome Dependence is needed when actual lives are at stake. When all you want to do is fuck, then a little Outcome Independence goes a long way.

Todd
Todd
7 years ago

For me it’s all about Return on Investment. Meaning if I put in my time, money, and energy into the early stages of dating a woman and my goal is to have sex with her, she damn well better be worth it and not wasting the three resources I listed above. I’ve noticed a growing trend among women that they will string you along and try to not give up the bang for as long as possible. They shit test and gauge your attention by playing cat and mouse games expecting you to jump through hoops like a monkey.

I counter it by escalating from the very beginning and framing things so sex occurs as quickly as possible using logistics and planning. If it doesn’t happen I let her do the dating work or just move on.

They want to take things slow because they have 3-4 other dudes in the loop giving her attention and you and her have to get to know each other. Maybe i’m outcome independent in the sense that if sex isn’t accomplished by date 4 I realize my time is being wasted and move on.

J Doe
J Doe
7 years ago

I’m not sure I agree with this post. In my experience I’ve noticed that people who are too outcome dependent are too scared to take huge risks because their mind immediately focuses on the worst case scenario. Rather than playing to win, they play ‘not to lose’ if that makes sense. While the outcome is certainly important, focus on the present moment is most important of all. People who are outcome independent still care about results, they just seem to be better at absorbing setbacks.

Phil Galt
Phil Galt
7 years ago

Hello Roosh:

I’d like to thank you for a very profound and though-provoking post.
I have been involved in a number of “outcome independent” situations (am in a border-line one right now), and your post gives me reason to reflect on this. I’ll spare you the anecdotes, but in almost all cases the common denominator was that I was taking responsibility for someone else’s screw-up. In other words the previous runners in the relay made as little effort as possible, and I was when the baton was finally handed to me, I was expected made up for lost time by “applying myself” and “giving 100-and-10%”. It didn’t help that me being the good little beta (read moron), I actually believed that if the situation wasn’t working I just needed to try harder.
Anyways, thanks again for the eye-opener.

DAP
DAP
7 years ago

Outcome Independence gets you out of your head and into your body so that you can take action.

Phinn
Phinn
7 years ago

Outcome independence is a euphemism for avoiding oneitis.

Oneitis is the anxiety that comes from being rejected by your target. That anxiety is a product of a mindset of scarcity, and the desperation that flows from it when your one and only prospect is slipping away.

We call it oneitis. Women call it desperate or needy. Nothing telegraphs low value faster or more clearly.

Calling it “outcome independence” misses the point, and obscures the fact that what really matters is demonstrating that you have other options.

Artist71
Artist71
7 years ago

I agree with Phinn here, not to detract from Roosh as his post is very on target when dealing with LIFE goals that aren’t female related.
But normally the quickest way to drive them off is to focus on them. Have a life, be passionate about your goals there and totally outcome dependent…but with women, yeah show that at your own risk. American women at least will run to the man who doesn’t need them or appear as they don’t even want them, seen it time and time again.
When you couldn’t care less is when they will.

Robert W. Baur
Robert W. Baur
5 years ago
Reply to  Artist71

I’m going to speak very candidly about this as this affects me personally I don’t have much success in this area. This is a catch 22 if there ever was one. something I am now trying to learn but it seems very hard if you don’t already have countless options. The same mentality may exist for someone who is seeking employment. It is probably a lot easier to get a job when one already has one because the consequence of failure is limited. Worse comes to worse even if you have a crappy job is you still have an income and you can be less anxious and focus more in the present. If you add a history of rejection and not knowing which behavior works and what doesn’t due to lack of exposure or lack of success with negative opinions of others with seeing other people succeed where you do not with countless mixed and contradictory opinions “be your self, change your wardrobe, change your diet exercise, don’t care what people think” you create a culture of neurosis because people can’t just be themselves and feel what they feel/ Maybe I’m wrong but men do not judge women in this way. If a woman has social anxiety disorder I know and maybe I can speak only for myself but I don’t unattractive to her. Part of me might feel MORE attracted to her because I understand anxiety can be painful or uncomfortable and she reveals herself to be a human being. But another part of me just won’t take it into consideration at all. If she has my interests, is intelligent has something worth saying, is funny and if I personally am attracted to her (regardless of whether the rest of society thinks I should or should not be) Those are the things which I focus on. So not knocking mindfulness and becoming more “outcome independent” It might be the very thing that one needs to succeed in this thing after such a long time..But then here’s the catch 22 again If I do this in order to succeed than are not STILL outcome dependent because the very reason the conversation is taking place in the first place IS to succeed ins’t it. If people truly did not care about outcome why would there be the need to write articles on becoming less focused on it for the sole purpose of achieving the desired outcome! Still I digress here. The main point is that not everyone especially women seems to HAVE to turn themselves into Zen masters and to ensure one does achieve the desired outcome. We judge people to harshly I think for this supposed character trait of “outcome dependence” MAYBE SOCIETY WON’T CHANGE. But morally I think we would all be better off as people to only judge people based on their true merits AS people not based on a “mindset” artificially created by social situations themselves. That would be the rational and fair method for determining quality partners. If that can’t happen I’m ready to do some mental gymnastics…if that is what it takes. Let 2+2 = 5 “for the good of the species”

hiphopanonamous
hiphopanonamous
7 years ago

Great point. One that is missed by the acolytes of Eckhart Tolle.

I’m a big fan of Nick Saban, who preaches his “Process.” Being a champ before the championship. Actively going out and getting the results you want because it’s absolutely within your control. By putting yourself in the best possible position to win, you do.

The Power of Now will teach you to go sit in a cave, be satisfied that you are “present,” and particular results that you want don’t come to you, it’s ok man it just wasn’t meant to be. But hey, at least you’re PRESENT!

james
james
5 years ago

Roosh completely misses the point. Outcome independence comes from Buddhism thinking on non attachment. The whole point of life is to be free from suffering. If u are attached to an outcome with a girl, and that doesn’t come true, you will be sad. Therefore you will suffer. If you are non attached to the outcome, you will not be sad when it does not come true, and will not suffer. As another poster said, the object is to focus on the doing, and make sure whatever you do, you give it 100% and then if it does not work out, you change what u did in the future and adapt. Pain does not necessarily lead to a change in behaviour. So many people continuingly do painful activity and achieve the same result. You need to change your behaviour by analysing your results and adjusting accordingly.

He is absolutely incorrect about leaders being outcome dependant. Hitler, Donald trump etc failed many times before they exceeded. If they had been dependant on a certain outcome they would have been completely devastated by their failure and given up. Instead they adapted and learnt from the failure.

Robert W. Baur
Robert W. Baur
5 years ago
Reply to  james

I’m going to speak very candidly about this as this affects me personally I don’t have much success in this area. This is a catch 22 if there ever was one. something I am now trying to learn but it seems very hard if you don’t already have countless options. The same mentality may exist for someone who is seeking employment. It is probably a lot easier to get a job when one already has one because the consequence of failure is limited. Worse comes to worse even if you have a crappy job is you still have an income and you can be less anxious and focus more in the present. If you add a history of rejection and not knowing which behavior works and what doesn’t due to lack of exposure or lack of success with negative opinions of others with seeing other people succeed where you do not with countless mixed and contradictory opinions “be your self, change your wardrobe, change your diet exercise, don’t care what people think” you create a culture of neurosis because people can’t just be themselves and feel what they feel/ Maybe I’m wrong but men do not judge women in this way. If a woman has social anxiety disorder I know and maybe I can speak only for myself but I don’t unattractive to her. Part of me might feel MORE attracted to her because I understand anxiety can be painful or uncomfortable and she reveals herself to be a human being. But another part of me just won’t take it into consideration at all. If she has my interests, is intelligent has something worth saying, is funny and if I personally am attracted to her (regardless of whether the rest of society thinks I should or should not be) Those are the things which I focus on. So not knocking mindfulness and becoming more “outcome independent” It might be the very thing that one needs to succeed in this thing after such a long time..But then here’s the catch 22 again If I do this in order to succeed than are not STILL outcome dependent because the very reason the conversation is taking place in the first place IS to succeed ins’t it. If people truly did not care about outcome why would there be the need to write articles on becoming less focused on it for the sole purpose of achieving the desired outcome! Still I digress here. The main point is that not everyone especially women seems to HAVE to turn themselves into Zen masters and to ensure one does achieve the desired outcome. We judge people to harshly I think for this supposed character trait of “outcome dependence” MAYBE SOCIETY WON’T CHANGE. But morally I think we would all be better off as people to only judge people based on their true merits AS people not based on a “mindset” artificially created by social situations themselves. That would be the rational and fair method for determining quality partners. If that can’t happen I’m ready to do some mental gymnastics…if that is what it takes. Let 2+2 = 5 for the good of the species.

bodmon
bodmon
7 years ago

not truly caring about success is a certainly bad thing. but i don’t think that “outcome independence” as thrown around in the community actually means that.

i think that outcome independence is realizing that pick-up is a difficult and unpredictable endeavour, which difficulty and unpredictability serve to deny a lot of guys a measurable guarantee of success. it is not not caring about success, but is realizing that rejection will be a natural part of a slow and steady road of progress, and taking care not to identify your self-worth with these rejections.

yes, you should not make half-assed approaches. but then you should not expect girls to fall in love with them because you’ve read a shit ton of ebooks. the standard you should hold yourself to is: considering my present advantages, knowledge, and capabilities, did i make the most full-assed approach i could make and push things as far as i could? things beyond this are either well outside of your skill level or control and your inability to master them and make absolutely sure that the girl likes/kisses/fucks you should not be taken personally.

after all, did you not say in your roosh program post that an aspiring pua’s first 100 approaches will most likely not net him any bangs? and yet here you say that you should be disappointed if you do 10 approaches one night and get nothing. i remember on my first night in vegas in april of this year i made 10 approaches and got 3 makeouts and a one night stand. the next night at another club i made 10 approaches and got shit. was i mad at myself? no, not really. i put in the work i knew how to put in.

ultimately roosh i think that it’s a quirk of yours that you can have pause and be critical about women and still be able to approach. i find that pouring over red pill truths really fucks up my game and the relentless, almost delusional positivity (i.e. “state”) that i and many guys require to approach reliably.

i say all of this because outcome dependence is something i’ve been suffering a lot of lately. i get into my head about making the perfect approach and achieving the perfect outcome, and i take rejections pretty hard. i need to stop doing this.

Jay
Jay
7 years ago

They say the best players are the ones who really don’t give a fuck, on many levels I think you would agree. Yet isn’t this just a rather crude way of saying that they are independent of outcome? Not much of a difference there.

Also, one could argue, there’s not much of a difference from those who are outcome dependent with those who need external validation to feel good about themselves, if you catch my drift. Women can smell it on a man, and if they had the choice of two players with equal game, no doubt they’d take the one who cared less.

Higher Game
Higher Game
7 years ago

Haha, nice inside jab there about Russia not really being a part of Europe. 😉

Nigel Big Game
7 years ago

Mr. Roosh,

I couldn’t agree more. Every time I roll out to plug up a new ass, I stay out until I bring something back.

Outcome matters.

Anonymous
Anonymous
7 years ago

“Separating your emotions from the desired result is a guaranteed way to rob yourself of a great motivating tool.”

I think you buried the lead here. The main point is that many guys, especially (not even) the smartest ones, approach self-improvement as an engineering problem to be solved, thereby robbing themselves of one of nature’s greatest spurs to greatness: negative emotions.

Pain, wounded pride, shame, humiliation, crying, fear—in ancient days these were not dirty words, or things to wall off with convenient maxims like “Process over outcome.” They were considered the essential tools for eventual success.