The Point Of Diminishing Return

It’s difficult to know when to quit. Whether you’re dealing with money, pussy, or travel, there comes a point where you pass the point of diminishing return. When the correct move is to enjoy and reflect on our gains before moving on to something else, why do we keep doing the same thing? Why do we forego new opportunities for an old habit that doesn’t give us as much pleasure as it used to?

Poker and blackjack players know how hard it is to end a session. It doesn’t matter if you’re up or down—there is a psychological pull that keeps you seated until the typical result of losing all your money, no matter how well you may have been doing. In poker you go on “tilt” where your emotions override your logic and you lose everything while complaining about how some sucker called the pot when he “should’ve” folded. Those who do well at gambling not only have to be skilled at the game but also strong enough to get up from the table when there is little advantage in staying.

It’s the same feeling when having a goal to save money. You tell yourself when you have X amount of cash you will feel comfortable in life. Then you get there and realize that you could use a bit more. You get to your second goal but decide to keep going. I have saved much more than my initial goal I set over five years ago but now I feel it’s not enough and decided on a goal that is ten times more than the original. I know that if I get there it still won’t be enough. You can give me one million dollars right now and I’ll still feel insecure after a month or two, thinking of ways to increase it further.

The problem with humans is that the program in our DNA tells us that it’s never enough. We simply can’t stay satisfied with what we have. Another example is notches. I can’t seem to stop chasing them, even though I get less pleasure from the pursuit than in my twenties. The only difference between chasing money and chasing notches is that the former is sanctioned by society while the other is not, but in the end they’re not all that different.

When is it time to say enough and ease out of chasing something that used to give you so much happiness? Why does it seem impossible for me to quit a game that has defined me for so long? Many men stay hooked long after they should’ve quit, hanging on to a pursuit that no longer makes sense, all while neglecting the present. You face the risk of forgoing new pleasures that may take you way above what used to give you everything, but no longer does. The hardest thing in life is knowing when to get up from the table.

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Solarex
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Wow. Great post.

DBCooper
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I have to echo what Solarex said. The post reminded me of a great quote, not sure who it’s by but…

‘Quitting whilst you’re ahead, is not the same as quitting.’

YouSoWould
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The point at which I stop striving to better myself in all areas of my life is the point at which I stop being a man. Maybe that day will come, but not before I’m 60 years old at least, and maybe not even then.

The struggle defines us.

Jim
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And having notches does what in the long run? You can’t take it with you. Your reference to cash is also wrong. Once you get to the point in life where you have stability, you should only work to keep that going. Problems arise though when you allow others to tell you it’s not good enough. Yeah I might drive a 14 year old Ford but it’s paid and so is the crib. And if people are judging me on that, I take comfort in knowing that I get to spend most of my time at home instead of at work LIKE THEY DO. I wake up everyday not to an alarm, but naturally. So fuck ’em.

I find that men who define their existence solely on women exhibit the most problems by far and have the worst issues to deal with. And believe me when I say they are ill equipped to handle them when they catch up. And they always do.

Lee
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Roosh,

It sounds like you’re struggling with what to do next. Maybe you should use your travel experiences to find a place you want to live for awhile and brush up on your relationship game. Possibly, write a book eventually called “Bang, your wife”. I can imagine that what you are doing now would get exhausting after awhile.

Anonymous
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I think that human beings like a certain amount of “roots” and stability – when you constantly move on you don’t develop any roots and really allow your self to grow as a person. The ass is fun and nice but it does get old and then get new again. Having people to count on and learn from and enjoy on a daily weekly and monthly basis is valuable – you have chosen a tough path but learned a lot. I would liken what your saying to taking the same classes in college over and over again – you get the degree, the masters, the PHD and then at a certain point it is time to jump into applying it to new situations and life.

Lee
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Actually, nix what I said above. Traveling isn’t what you’re getting bored of. You’re getting bored of having to run the same game over and over again. It sounds like your travels have been pretty sweet, but what have you seen besides the women? Sometimes the scenery can be just as nice as the women.

Another idea for ya, go on a road trip across the US. Write a book “On the Road (to a Bang)”. I’d bet that 80% of your target audience is interested more in how to get laid with American women. Yes, they are overweight and manjawed, but for a large part of the US, that’s their only option. You should write about how to weed out the best ones. Also, enjoy the scenery as you go. Maybe don’t work for a bang every night of the week. Just a couple of times a week. Explore the western US especially. There is some beautiful stuff out there.

OldHornDog
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This is actually one of your better posts mate. Here are some pointers from an old horn dog, if you care:

Human beings by nature are creature of habits. They adapt to change and adversity very well but often they also get defined by them. It’s very difficult for you to give up chasing poon if your very existence is defined by it (i.e. your mental peptides have defined reward patterns, your make a living with it, you are not used to staying in one place anymore, etc.).

Chasing poon sounds like fun in your 20s and 30s but in your 40s at the very latest you will realize that most pussy dives are not worth the hassle. After hundreds of vaginas at some point I realized that one pretty much is like the other – with certain varieties of course (no argument there). But in the end everything you get in life comes with a price tag attached to it.

Or in other words – one man’s heaven is another’s purgatory. For some guys on this blog your lifestyle sounds like a dream come true. Ten or twenty years ago I would agreed. However at this stage in my life I know that I can get all the poon I want and I find it a lot more rewarding to devote my time and energy to my personal and professional goals. I feel more fulfilled working on them (not even the gains but the actual action of pursuit) than to waste hours or days on some airhead just so that she winds up polishing my broomstick.

And it’s not that my libido has suffered – I am very fulfilled in that department. It’s just that I have developed a more discriminatory perspective. When I see some hot piece of ass in almost all cases I think – yeah, been there done that. I’m much more motivated to spend my time on other pursuits. If I have a choice between my MA class and meeting some chick then it’s the former almost every time.

Maybe I’m slowing down – that’s probably what most of you young bucks are thinking. Very much so – but I’m actually a lot more happy this way. And that doesn’t mean I’m ‘settling down’ – six months ago i just gave up my entire life in L.A. and moved to Spain. So my sense of adventure/change is still very developed – I have not turned into a 9-5 two and half children suburbanite. Just maybe have climbed high enough to see above the tree tops and now I wonder why I ever was so worried about all those bushes 😉

Isaac Jordan
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Roosh,

I’d recommend checking out a book called “The Happiness Hypothesis” by Jonathan Haidt. It aims to answer exactly the question you’re asking.

OldHornDog
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Agree with Isaac – there is a ton of work on happiness. And in a nutshell let me explain it all to you in one sentence: Human beings are never happy 😉

Once you reach one goal you are only primed to think of the next one. And that’s how most people are – stagnation is slow death.

Red Pill
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Oh boy. Is Roosh buttering us up before letting us know he’s “settling down”? What’s next, Tom Leykis onto wife #5?

thecaptainpower
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Roosh, I am 32 years old and I have $102,000 in a 2.9% CD and I am still scared to death of being broke…..Just keep doing what you are doing, the Rolling Stones are gng on tour again at age 70.

never stop, never give in…

Captain Power

Tony Stone
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The time to cash out is when you find a woman who maintains your interest while looking after your needs as if they were her own; and who you can envision as the mother of children as you’re drawn towards the greatest investment of your time and energy, fatherhood. When that day comes, you’ll know it. Until then, keep plowing away.

The Vain Yogi
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Do you quit when you achieve your original goal?
Do you quit when you obtain diminishing returns?
Do you quit when something else more attractive pulls you away?

Quitting is difficult because it feels like defeat. It is not. It is knowing that you have achieved your original goal and it is time to move on. It is knowing that returns are much less than what you deserve and you deserve much more than that. It is knowing that it is time to move on because another attractive journey lies ahead of you and it is time to move on. It is not quitting, it is knowing. Knowing yourself, your capacities and your needs. What it takes to make you happy.

Pursuit has a hidden result of defining who you are, who you have become. It is this attractive identity that is so hard to give up. We might kill ourselves if we give up this identity. But it is only a story we made up, selecting elements, rejecting others. If we created this identity, we can kill it and create another. A better one that this. More fulfilling. More nurturing. More … you.

Best of luck!

SadieB
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You realize that any attempt to carve a new path will be scuttled by your distinct appearance? Sacrifices must be made. You know what I’m talking about.

SadieB
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THE BEARD MUST GO

20th Level
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It must he that time of the month because I swear Roosh writes one of these about every 30 days…….I kid, I kid..

Seriously though when I was small the most important thing in the world was getting a Big Wheel with a grip shifter brake on the back right wheel. As I got older the most important thing in the world was NOT to have a bike with a gay ass banana seat on the back.

My point is that things that seem super important at one age cease to be when you get older. It’s inevitable.

I’m also calling it now that Roosh will put his considerable writing skills to work along with his wealth of knowledge from bouncing around the globe to move on to writing books that have nothing to do with pulling bitches.

There are self publishers out now that are KILLING it and Roosh is going to crush it one day. Mark my words.
He won’t even be known as Roosh but there will be whispers that this popular writer has some sort of sordid past which in turn will make him even MORE popular.

Like I said, calling it now.

Anonymous
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You should have a kid or two with one of the better European women you met. This reminds me of something you tweeted a while ago – a woman over 30 and not married is a failure. The corrollary to that is, a man over 35 without children is a failure (biologically speaking. We are designed to reproduce. Unless you have health issues preventing you from having children, you should have at least one. Do your duty my good man. Don’t believe all that bs about how its easy for older men to have children – it isn’t. In fact, recent research has linked many developmental disabilities in children conceived by older men. Real talk.

Bobby
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Find supplemental interests. Complementary interests. Like OldHornDog above, I now find that, after a hundred plus women, there are more important things in life. Sometimes, the puxxy is not worth the drama.

Crowdsource your next life goals.

Areas to consider: 6 flags/PT lifestyle, languages a la “fluent in 3 months”, lifestyle hacking, etc.

Hawk
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@ 8 OldHornDog
November 2nd, 2012 @ 10:00 am

“Chasing poon sounds like fun in your 20s and 30s but in your 40s at the very latest you will realize … But in the end everything you get in life comes with a price tag attached to it.”

Pussy is like beer. Every man has his own amount to get his “fill”, then he goes home and throws up.

Yes I agree Old Horn Dog that eventually one can interest in one thing while gaining interest in something else. It will be interesting to see where Rooshs life takes him and if he is still hitting on young skags when he reaches his 40s or doing something else.

And yes there is a price for everything in life. In any choise you give up something for something else. Buts thats OK and the way it works.

Hawk
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Follow up: to Old Horn Dog who also stated “And it’s not that my libido has suffered – I am very fulfilled in that department. It’s just that I have developed a more discriminatory perspective. When I see some hot piece of ass in almost all cases I think – yeah, been there done that.”

Exactly. Eventually every man hits critical mass and it becomes been-there-done-that

Hawk
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@ Tony Stone whop stated “The time to cash out is when you find a woman who maintains your interest while looking after your needs as if they were her own; and who you can envision as the mother of children as you’re drawn towards the greatest investment of your time and energy, fatherhood. When that day comes, you’ll know it. Until then, keep plowing away”

Respectfully Tony, that is also called “chasing after a fantasy” That is exactly the Disney esque / Shakeseparian rooted bullshit propaganda that has been fed to men for so long. maye eons ago it was the case,. but not now and do not expect it to change until something happens where we get bombed back to the stone age by a doomsday metieor or something.

Today in modern times men who grow old and stick to their independence are the ones who are happiest, not someone who marches off to the gallows of matrimoney and becomes some womans poodle.

Roosh has written some excellent posts on how todays technology is alterting humanity, and how women act towards men. They are true and relevent to all of us.

Hawk
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@ 18 Anonymous
who stated:
“You should have a kid or two with one of the better European women you met. …. Do your duty my good man.”

Ha! No one is falling for that common feminazi manipulation tactic you fat sack of pig vomit.

Anonymous
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Ask yourself wat u want bro, are u tired of chasing ass altogether or maybe ur just tired of going through the same process everytime, i was reading that autobiography of arnold u put on ur book reviews and his train of was, “what can i do to make money from this”, idk bro meditate and write down wat comes to u

asdf
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Any hobby you turn into a living is going to ruin it eventually. At some point you will find yourself saying, “I don’t really want to do X right now, but if I don’t I won’t pull down the income I need this week.” Once enough of that happens you will start to hate your own hobby.

Turner
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You got me on the travel bit. I have lost the eye of the tiger with it. For this reason, I plan on staying put longer in locations, 4-8 months at a time. You are right, as some point it looses its luster. As I am sure with women is the same, which is why some players hang up their hats.

The question I guess becomes, how do you reignite that excitement? Or can you, or should you? And if not, what’s next? Hoping to find my next.

Turner

HeManMasterofthePooniverse
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I feel this way sometimes. I’m 30 no and have bedded well over 200 women. I am an expert at my craft, but frankly sometimes I feel I’m getting old for it. It’s time consuming, expensive, it has opportunity costs…and realistically I think it’s an addiction. I certainly can Identify with this thread.

playmuc
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yeah. and sometimes you’re forced to sit down at the table again to stop the damage from happening. Because you got up once and it lead to a huge shitstorm that would have been avoided if you had just continued to play the game.

playmuc
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@Isaac Jordan

dont read books about happiness. live and find it. ask others how they found it. i herby declare roosh’s literature the only self-help lit that is allowed.

EarthlyEros
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Dude I love your Site keep up the good work…

Looks like you need to feed your spirit and embrace the NOW… It’s never too late to chase pussy as long as your body agenda wants it and can get it.

Best I can give you is this pearl of wisdom from the Old Man Lao-Tzu; written more than 2500 years ago:

Fill your bowl to the brim
and it will spill.
Keep sharpening your knife
and it will blunt.
Chase after money and security
and your heart will never unclench.
Care about people’s approval
and you will be their prisoner.

Do your work, then step back.
The only path to serenity.

Tao Te Ching~

Namaste,
j.

litte roosh
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It’s time to move on Uncle Roosh. I’ve slept with 18 women this year, my most productive year yet and I’m frankly burnt out on chasing chicks! Too much drama. I’m going to find myself a wifey and drink wine and take naps and play lots of guitar. The game can be fun but it gets old too!

litte roosh
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ok slow down, maybe not a wifey, perhaps just a novia ha ha

Tampa
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Kids. That’s what will get you to cash out. Wanting to raise quality children to carry on your genetic and psychological lineage.

But once they are raised and out the door, you’ll go right back to chasing the setting sun. My dad who is retired, bought a fucking camper and just drives around the country going to all the national parks. Makes me laugh. Once he sees every national park, he will probably buy a fucking plane or something and start flying places.

The human mind doesn’t like to be idle for too long….mostly because an idle body starts to deteriorate and die.

I work on Capitol Hill and I remember asking this one prominent Senator why some of the old timers who have been in office 50+ years don’t retire. Why they run for reelection at 85 when they pretty much have all the money they would ever want and have seen the pinnacle of power.

He said “because deep down inside, in places you haven’t seen yet, they worry about dying. They know that if they retire, they lose their purpose and their reason to get up in the morning. And they know that once that reason evaporates, it’s a quick trip to the coffin. Watch how fast these guys die off after they leave this place. It usually happens within 2-3 years. When you lose a purpose for living, you die rather quickly once you’re older.”

It was a stark way of looking at things but it was so damn true. Then you watch guys like Arlen Specter, out of office for just under 2 years. Dead. Ted Stevens, loses his reelection and his dead within 16 months.

Weird phenomenon. Anyways, I think deep down that’s why my dad tries so hard to find a purpose and stay busy. Because subconsciously he doesn’t want to expire and die. Anyways.

Marusya
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That is the best post I ve read written by Roosh so far! Very thoughful and in demand.I bet all of us get bored from what we are doing at some point and then comes the question-what to do next, Am I living a correct life, if my choises are the right ones?!What i htink, Roosh was tryin to tell us that its important to find your “golden middle” in everything you do.To stop when its not too late, or keep going if you feel like you are still not ready and really love what you are doing,or just to take a pose and relax if you are not sure what to do ! Unfortunately many of us (if circumstances as health, finances and great lyfestyle allows)forget where the borders are, and overdo it in all ways but then again , its all life experiences and we learn from our mistakes, adventures, travels , etc .The point is to be sure that what you do is the right for you!

madmax
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”Why does it seem impossible for me to quit a game that has defined me for so long?”

maybe it’s because one invested so much into something, that he finds it difficult to call it quits. I have been a musician for many years. I don’t make a dime out of it, yet I know it’s I want to do. Once the bet you placed is so high, you give yourself many reasons why you ‘must do it’, I guess.’

Also, might be the endorphins we get

Cad and Bounder
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For most of you (who are in fact reactionaries to the Feminist destruction of modern life and, good luck to you) the following quid pro quo argument applies.

When women stop value filtering and dedicating every aspect of their daily lives towards hypergamy then we will consider stopping ‘game’.

For those of us descended from a more ancient -and proud but decaying- lineage of cads, it is just in our natureor our nurture to be this way. We deserve respect too.

ABC (Always Be Cadding)

Tony Stone
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Hawk it is true that I speak of an ideal, for that is what we must strive for. But it is not impossible for I have achieved it. Just not in the USA, I live in Asia.

As a younger man, I played the game and have shagged hundreds of women. It was fun, it was sport. Like Roosh, I also built my wealth, from zero to sufficient independance. By understanding who I am and want I want, I have been able to craft my life on my terms.

This also makes it easier to identify a potential partner and I selected a lovely traditional girl, with traditional family values. I am the master of my house, she is my dutiful wife, and my two kids are the greatest relationships I have in the world. They are the only relationships in the world that start at 100% perfection and can only diminish through your neglect.

But let’s be clear, I am now 46 and sowed my oats for 20 years before cashing out. Everyone has their own timeline and for some it is “never” by choice – and that is ok too.

I also didn’t do this in the USA and I honestly don’t think that I would have wanted to try. I agree with this forum that the mainstream culture is severely damaged. It’s ok to be a lifestyle migrant and relocate to S America, Europe or Asia. The male-female dynamics are very different to the USA, but more like I would consider to within the natural order.

Finally, marriage and kids are work, but then so is living alone, or starting a business, because everything in life takes effort. But none of these situations are a problem for an Alpha male because he is a leader and master of his own destiny.

And for the cynics, the opportunities in Asia for dalliances on the side are bountiful, although I wouldn’t recommend it. If divorce should happen, you don’t get screwed financially like with the lawyers and laws in the USA. And it is much easier to return to the game where, as a 45 or 55 year old guy, its quite common to still date 25 or 30 year old women.

So marriage on your own terms isn’t complete shit guys, at least not in Asia. But only do it if you want kids and believe you’ve found the right girl. and be sure to master your game and shag your fill before you do it.

Let me leave you with this joke, once told to me 15 years ago:

Two bulls were standing on a hill, overlooking a large herd of cows. The young bulls said “Hey! Lets run down there and screw one of those cows.” The old bull said “Son, lets walk down there and screw them all.”

Happy hunting.

Gremlin
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Well said.

Jay
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Jay
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Might be time to set some new goals, homes.

none
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You’re what — early thirties — and already with the “is that all there is” bullshit?

What a grim fucking cliche of a thought.

And everyone jumps to say: how profound. It’s not; it’s nothing.

Your stories about hunting snatch are good. Your “is that all there is” prattle is verbal trash. Who cares if it’s “honest.” Honest cowardice.

Think harder about what is making you ask such a rote question. And then break that chain.

Chi Hsu
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Eating chocolate when you’re a kid is something you want and for some people even though they don’t derive as much enjoyment out of it as they age it doesn’t stop them from buying it at the supermarket. Sex is like food, you keep doing it ‘cos it’s a part of living, regardless of how much you love it. As a suggestion, try doing something more ‘meaningful’ like alleviating third world poverty, see if that changes your relational desires and the frequency at which you need to fulfill them. Find something that breaks your heart.

michelin
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@Tony Stone. Great comment and good advice for older players, thanks. your post deserves a thread in the forum.

Eric
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Kind of reminds me of that scene from ‘Apocalypto’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvCPnlHb3iI

Theodora
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“The hardest thing in life is knowing when to get up from the table.”

You’ll see that when you’re actually ready to leave the table it wont feel like a hard choice.

Sounds like you’ve entered the 33-year-old zone, when you start questioning it all.. It’d be weird if you weren’t. Good luck and trust me, 34 will be better!

Theodora
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@Tony Stone:”Finally, marriage and kids are work, but then so is living alone, or starting a business, because everything in life takes effort. But none of these situations are a problem for an Alpha male because he is a leader and master of his own destiny.”

Well said, some people in here need reminding!

OldHornDog
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@ EarthlyEros (30) – that was awesome.

Turk
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I’m 26 moving onto 27 and i’ve already started having these mad thoughts about life, age, afraid of growing up not knowing what you want to do in life.
It only comes into play when i’m alone and bored or had a really good weekend partying and at the end i start thinking that there won’t be many of these left before all my friends drop out of the game and i’m left all alone chasing bitches.

Anonymous
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Yep…..I’ve been thinking for a while reading your posts that at some point revolving your life entirely around scoring a piece of ass has kind of a pathetic ring to it. Big deal who cares.

You are a great writer, and tremendously insightful observer of human nature and tendencies….don’t waste it.

Besides….in many ways your life has become the ultimate manifestation of what you preach against:putting pussy on a pedestal. Who puts pussy on a higher pedestal than you do? No one. You devote your existence to it…does that make you master or slave?

Brandon
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I remember my friends being all stoked back when God of War 3 came out. It had the same gameplay and plot as the other installments which made it predictable….eventually you even kill pretty much everything in the Universe that could possibly pose any threat to you. And now they’re making prequels and people still seem stoked about them.

…Anyways, it’s kind of like a damned if you don’t, damned if you do situation. You want and need certain things and experiences to achieve full inner game, but too much over compensation can lead to narcissm and ‘the destruction of your inner universe’ so to speak. Just think about corrupt business men and politicians that entertain themselves with greed and influence over others…

Whatever it is you do, I believe that as long as you provide a valuable and sincere service to others, you will be rewarded in correlation with the quality of that service and the phoney will be weeded out of the market… which PUAs have been weeded out and which ones have expanded and refined the arts in valuable and sincere ways?

Now instead of learning to game crazies we can filter them out and select more ideal types of women while focusing more on ourselves and our endeavors.

The question may be, ‘What’s next to be conquered or aquired?’ Remember that it probably won’t end until you are dead.

lafcina
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Defeatist much? You’re what, 33? You probably feel old, but you aren’t.

Maybe I’m projecting, but the age of 33 is a sensitive phase in every man’s life. Accumulated stress, ailing parents, too much travel, struggle to accumulate capital…

But you will turn around. You will start feeling stronger; I felt at my strongest at around 39-40. It was at the age of 41-42 that I noticed my body becoming weaker, and being forced to adopt various strategies to stay in top form.