We’ve gotten a lot of hate over the past year from politicians, C list celebrities, and female typists, but not from the direct relative of one of the most influential billionaires in the world. That seal has been broken by Mark Zuckerberg’s sister, who turns out is obsessed with the manosphere. Her most recent attacks against us have generated enough criticism that it has forced the “classics scholar” to respond by whining about non-existent death threats and anti-semitism (she’s Jewish) while safely encamped in her $2.1 million home.

How she wants you to think she looks like:

How she really looks like:

I vaguely remember an article she wrote a year ago about pickup titled Bang Rome, obviously copying the title format of my Pulitzer worthy sex guides. The article, which does not offer an excerpt worth quoting, tried to compare Ovid to modern pickup. One year later, she decided to try a different tact to get noticed: she directly attacked me, the alt right, and many other thought leaders in a Jezebel piece titled Putting The Neo Back In Neo Nazi, which is a likely reference to neomasculinity.

Nobody in their right mind would call Return of Kings a bastion of human decency. But when I became a regular (if resistant) reader of the site, most of its vitriol was reserved for predictable targets—especially Muslims and SJWs (“social justice warriors”). While its writers have dabbled in barely-coded anti-Semitism in the past, others have argued against it—though their gradual shift became clear in July with the article “Is Antisemitism Genuine Bigotry Or A Practical Counterdefense Against A Powerful Tribe?” Roosh V, a “neomasculine” man with a poor imitation of a Duck Dynasty beard, has gone from arguing in February that “The Alt Right Is Worse Than Feminism In Attempting To Control Male Sexual Behavior” to saying in August, “While we are not officially an alt right site, we share much overlap with them in the general alternative sphere.” (He also refuses to denounce Richard Spencer for his recent forays into blatant Nazi rhetoric.)

[…]

Only a few weeks ago, Return of Kings published a predictably horrifying article with the title “11 Tips For Raising Your Daughter on the Red Pill” which advises, among other things, that you should hit on waitresses in front of your children so they can see what game looks like.

In another recent article on her blog, she goes after me and Quintus Curtius, who continues to connect hundreds of men with the classics while she perverts it into a grotesque image of social justice.

Predictably, Quintus Curtius has an extremely limited understanding of “how things were like in previous eras.” His stated goal is “to remind readers of the glories of leadership, character, and masculine virtue that can change their lives” — so of course, his understanding of antiquity is of a world inhabited by only a few extremely elite men. He has no sense of or interest in social history, cultural history, women, slaves, children, and broad historical trends. The ancient world is reduced to a textbook model for leadership, character, and masculine virtue.

[…]

Next time you hear either of those arguments made, remember: they are also made by a man who tells stories about raping women in his “Bang” series of “game guides,” who believes that “Women Must Have Their Behavior And Decisions Controlled By Men,” who recently rejoiced because the election of Donald Trump “automatically legitimizes masculine behaviors that were previously labeled sexist and misogynist” — a man who was rejected by the Alt-Right for being insufficiently white himself.

[…]

So why have so many white, male leaders of communities and websites that used to focus on sex and gender shifted in recent months to anti-Semitism, white nationalism, and complaining about “(((the media)))”? In part, of course, because these men were always grossly bigoted and racist.

For living in a multi-million dollar home in a neighborhood with only a 1.7% black population (the national average is 12.6%), she seems terribly concerned about racism. Do you think she has even met a black person during her residence in one of the most expensive zip codes in the United States? It is peculiar why someone who never sees black people would be so concerned about racism, unless of course she is an intolerable hypocrite who hasn’t yet checked her billionaire privilege.

I wouldn’t want to subject you to any more of her pseudo-intellectual writings, but it’s clear from them that she has a serious obsession with masculine writers who have normal testosterone levels, unlike her potato-faced husband, through her admission that she follows badthink sites daily along with the individual personalities behind them. Attacking Quintus Curtius, a man who takes his work seriously, proved to be her greatest mistake. In an article titled When Education Does Not Mean Knowledge: The Case Of Mark Zuckerberg’s Sister, he evaporates her entire educational career in one go.

Character matters in everything, Ms. Zuckerberg, and it affects everything. And this is why I focus on it in my books. If you had a more expansive soul and were possessed of deeper life experiences you might know this.

And this really is the heart of the matter. I emphasize character, morals, and the education of the young because I know how important it is. I am a forty-eight year old man who has more scars than you will ever have. I have fought more battles than you will ever fight. While you were mincing around the halls of Princeton University, I was leading Marines in Okinawa and East Asia.

While you were bullying people for not adhering to your politically-correct ideology, I was starting a law firm, trying cases in court, fighting for the rights of the common man, and making an honest name for myself. This is the difference between you and me. While you are a spoiled child of privilege, I am a man who has earned his way through life through the sweat of his own brow.

Do you want to know why I write? Because I love the subject matter, and I truly believe in its power to bring back what we have lost from our society. I venerate these classical and Renaissance works because I know how true their lessons are for real life. I use them as a source of moral inspiration, a guide to a better life, and as a vision for the elevation of the human spirit.

You, on the other hand, use them as a punch line. You have no real feel for these works. If you did, you would never be able to miss the role of character and virtue in a great many classical and Renaissance works. In fact, I think that deep down, you despise these books.

[…]

Unlike you, I am not a child of privilege. No one ever gave me anything: I made my own way in life as the son of immigrants who did not have the benefit of being royalty like yourself. I earned my love of ancient wisdom with my own effort, and I hold it close to my heart.

Quintus and I also had some laughs at her expense on the latest Kingmaker podcast (starts at 7:30)

Other men have revealed how worthless a PhD from Princeton is these days.

This is a very glaring and instructive example of the penetration of leftist/SJW ideology into every nook and cranny of society. The entire purpose of studying Classics is that the ideas and values of the Greco-Roman tradition are (sometimes literally) written in stone. They are immutable. They are not open to change and interpretation. They are literally foundational. They are the bedrock of Western Civilization. You don’t get to go back and retcon Plato into being an Afro-Caribbean hipster with an interest in women’s issues. These people are literally trying to-write history to suit their modern political agenda. As the commenter astutely pointed out, this is gross cultural appropriation of the worst and most damning type – this is outright cultural theft. They are attempting to steal Classical culture and remake it in the image of social justice (their god).

And it’s clear this Zuckerberg woman is a real piece of work. Her insecurity comes across in her writing (she is desperately in search of an avenue of self-importance to attach her name to). I can’t imagine the sort of psychological strain she must be under. When you’re a neurotic striver of the sort that she is, having to live with the fact that your goofy, Aspergerish brother became a multi-billionaire and culturally significant figure by the age of 25 while you’re reduced to pimping the SJW narrative on some shitty website (which your moneybags brother is no doubt paying for) can’t be good for one’s feeling of self-worth. (Scorpion)

[…]

Donna Zuckerberg should be working on her dissertation on Ancient Greek tragedy and comedy, but somehow she always seems to find herself baking scones and then blogging about them. Follow her delicious adventures at sugarmountaintreats.com [her food blog] or on Facebook.

It’s unfortunate that Donna does not feel free to devote even more time to what is clearly her true passion — cooking, and baking in particular — and is instead obliged to finish her “dissertation” and produce these worthless whiny texts on “Eidolon”. It’s an error and a waste of time, and it probably diminishes the quality of the scones (which should have mostly remained unblogged) and prevents them from being as dreamily delicious as they could be. (Lizard Of Oz)

[…]

The women’s criticism of groups of men who challenge the orthodoxy of our sociopolitical landscape reads like a projection of their own feminine inadequacies and a craving for the male dominance and validation they claim to hate. Tell me a time when either Return Of Kings or the Roosh V Forum praised women like them.

The supreme irony, too, is that Zuckerberg’s brother created Facebook from an original concept called Facemash, which rated the attractiveness of Harvard girls and got the budding entrepreneur in hot water. This was all really no different to anything Return Of Kings currently does in rating women. (Return Of Kings)

How do you think the “classics scholar” responded? What do you think the product of Princeton wrote to Quintus, a man who gave countless historical rebuttals of her odious revisionism? She cried liked a big baby.

https://twitter.com/donnazuck/status/809906387207626753

The Ivy Leaguer has no clothes. She is no different than a high school girl on Tumblr who accuses you of harassment after you make fun of her claim that she spiritually identifies as a deer. Her primary response was to write an article—not to refute any of the rebuttals against her—but to explain to her apathetic readership that they need to do a better job of supporting her against the criticisms of evil men that she attacked first when she called them racists and rapists.

Do not say any of these to the person receiving the abuse. In fact, you probably shouldn’t say them at all.

Do not suggest that they should consider not writing about topics that draw this kind of hatred. This response is terrible for many reasons, but I’ll limit myself to two here:

1) Don’t blame the victim. Ever. Nobody is ever “asking” for anti-Semitic death threats, unless they literally tweet “please send me anti-Semitic memes for research purposes!”

2) A tiny voice in the writer’s head is almost certainly saying this exact thing, and that voice doesn’t need to be amplified.

Do not assume you know how the writer feels. “You must be curled up in the fetal position right now!” may seem like a sympathetic thing to say, but death threats can provoke a wide range of emotional responses. Instead of assuming, ask, “How are you holding up?”

Even though not one person has said they’d kill her (a lamp shade meme is not a “death threat”), she expects you to accept that the sister of one of the richest men in the world, who is using her education not to breathe life into the classics but to defame men who understand it better than her, and who lives in the top 1% economic bracket nationwide, is a victim of abuse. Her family does not have enough of the pie, and she needs more, so tread carefully and give her support in the exact manner she demands. Bow down you lowly peasant! Rush to her aid! Or maybe not, since it appears she has practically no supporters. Apparently it’s tough to accumulate social justice victim points when you have the super-mega-bucks and are Jewish, a group that happens to be the most privileged in the United States. What person wants to help a woman who never has to worry about working again for the rest of her entire life and can simply live out her days baking scones for a food blog?

Maybe one day we will encounter an enemy who is our intellectual equal, but today is not that day. Instead we must endure adult children who shriek out in pain as they strike us, whose blows effortlessly slide off us like water from a seal’s fur coat. And if Mark Zuckerberg is reading this right now, and there is a good chance he is because his arrogant sister bit off more than she could chew, I want him to know that she is now our “house ho.”

Mark, we have raped your sister’s mind with our ideas and our vigor. We have so burrowed a hole into her head that not a day goes by without her thinking of our ideology, our arguments, and our words. You can do your worst on Facebook, and hide reality to your heart’s content, but you cannot even begin to stop us from wounding your own family. What goes around comes around—you’ve manipulated the minds of millions people who use Facebook, censoring the truth from them, and now we own the mind of your sister.

And I’d surely click the like button on that.

Read Next: The End Game Of Feminism

129 Comments
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Larsen Halleck
3 years ago

I don’t mean to toot my own horn, but I wrote an article on my website that makes the exact same point about Ovid. Except, of course, I like to think mine is better.

http://thebarbaricgentleman.com/2016/03/26/art-love-ovid/

White Prowler
White Prowler
3 years ago
Reply to  Larsen Halleck

White male privileged brain ftw

MajorStyles
MajorStyles
3 years ago

“And if Mark Zuckerberg is reading this right now…I want him to know that she is now our “house ho.”

I laughed so hard at that line that I spit coffee out onto my keyboard. Ha!!! Roosh’s underappreciated sense of humor rises again. Lol.

BTW…don’t think she wouldn’t enjoy that position.

Hugo
Hugo
3 years ago
Reply to  MajorStyles

I know that noticing is a hate crime but, the Jew is gonna Jew.

Shmalkandik
Shmalkandik
3 years ago
Reply to  Hugo

She doesn’t Jew, or she’d be out there making money. Instead, she is a full time princess.

Hugo
Hugo
3 years ago
Reply to  Shmalkandik

Nah. Take your neocohen posts elsewhere. She is a product of Judaic culture.

Shmalkandik
Shmalkandik
3 years ago
Reply to  Hugo

I am glad to take them here. Next round? Or are you still proud of supporting the Hillarybeast? How do you hold the two sides of your head together, supporting Trump, and your private war against the Joos? Inquiring minds would like to know. But you aren’t the only person so afflicted. It a potential fracture point of the alt. rihgt, and I shall with interest how you resolve the contradiction.

Noope, not all Jews are like that. I know making distinctions and recognizing differences is more work, but God is iin the details. Meanwhile, when the IAF fixes the F35, you don’t have to say thanks – they already got paid.

Hugo
Hugo
3 years ago
Reply to  Shmalkandik

Old timer, don’t go off your medications. Seriously.

OMGlaucon
OMGlaucon
3 years ago
Reply to  Shmalkandik

When I was much younger, we had a term for Jewish Bitches, “JAP, Jewish American Princesses” and made jokes about how they acted… “What is a JAP’s favorite thing to make for dinner… reservations” This was in the late 70s and early 80s. Their goal is always to never work, period….

Frank Rook
Frank Rook
3 years ago

^^Those last 3 paragraphs. So satisfying. Cathartic.

Libertas
3 years ago

Her doing something as regards to Ovid in seduction is basically just a cheap imitation of all the stuff Robert Greene wrote in The Art of Seduction anyway, which is heavily influenced by Ovid’s ideas.

I suspect that as the Trump era starts and expands, these social justice warriors will not only suffer from “Trump derangement syndrome,” but will also begin to suffer from related derangement syndromes from anyone loosely associated with Trump or whatever you want to call “the alternative” space in general, which is basically now the mainstream anyway.

corvinus
corvinus
3 years ago

Cold. Ice cold. Shiv stuck in and left there cold.

fatherofthree
fatherofthree
3 years ago

You’re wasting your time engaging with her. It only makes her pussy wetter and she’ll be back for more. If you’re doing it for generating traffic, I doubt she brings a lot of it. Third possibility is you feel flattered she mentions you and you’re just stroking your ego. Anyhow, it’s a waste of time.

Per Desteen
Per Desteen
3 years ago
Reply to  fatherofthree

No, it’s bringing battle to the enemy, one that is a soft target and will amplify its pain as it shrieks for sympathy. It may even go overboard and make delightfully bad statements that will be meme-worthy.

TheHammer
TheHammer
3 years ago
Reply to  Per Desteen

It’s all about the memes!

Burner Prime
Burner Prime
3 years ago
Reply to  fatherofthree

Agree to some degree. Devoting an entire article to a milquetoast plain jane feminist gives her way more attention than she deserves. Hell she may even have been trolling for it. I get a strong sense she craves the masculine cock she isn’t getting at home.
On the other hand, she is the sister of, not only one of the richest people on the planet, but who is also part of the globalist cabal. It is a sign that ROK is definitely in the cross-hairs of the globalists. The importance of that cannot be understated.

Rudi
Rudi
3 years ago
Reply to  Burner Prime

There are several articles a day. It really isn’t a big deal. Now, having a rebuttal come up with her attacks might be worthwhile. Always got to fight when you’re down.

Doctor Mayhem
Doctor Mayhem
3 years ago
Reply to  fatherofthree

Yes, because fighting back is always a waste of time…

fatherofthree
fatherofthree
3 years ago
Reply to  Doctor Mayhem

you call this fighting?

White Prowler
White Prowler
3 years ago
Reply to  fatherofthree

The Zuck sure does lol

bob k. mando
bob k. mando
3 years ago
Reply to  fatherofthree

if you don’t think this is fighting, why don’t YOU demonstrate the proper technique?

or is the technique you’re demonstrating yet more reflexive Cuckservative abasement before the Left?

*yawn* never have seen that before.

PresenceLOVE
PresenceLOVE
3 years ago
Reply to  fatherofthree

Your right… it’s was a merciless slaughter. But hey, sometimes it’s gotta be done to make an example!!!

per ramen cent
per ramen cent
3 years ago
Reply to  fatherofthree

I think it’s a good idea. She seems really interested in red pill.

Thursday1
Thursday1
3 years ago

Extremely privileged person discovers that in the real world not everyone will praise you if you write stupid shit.

Thursday1
Thursday1
3 years ago

Ovid’s Art of Love is actually a terrible pick up manual. Very beta male: lots of flattery and gifts.

Jonny-O
Jonny-O
3 years ago
Reply to  Thursday1

Ars amatoria a subversive poem that undermines Augustus’ artificial and disingenuous “return” to imaginary traditional values, Roman virtues, and family purity ideas. Additionally it ridicules the beta male whiney lover found in Roman elegy, like propertius or ovids persona in his amores. Its a funny, ironic, and subversive poem about Roman politics and culture as well as literary genre.

Thursday1
Thursday1
3 years ago
Reply to  Jonny-O

Nah, Ovid seems to really believe the flattery and gifts bullshit.

Jonny-O
Jonny-O
3 years ago
Reply to  Thursday1

Lol, then you need to read more Ovid. There’s not a lot he seems to take seriously.

Thursday1
Thursday1
3 years ago
Reply to  Jonny-O

I’ve read more than you.

Jonny-O
Jonny-O
3 years ago
Reply to  Thursday1

I doubt that highly. I also have a classics PhD, so I’ve read everything by Ovid in the original Latin. Not only that but I’ve taught classes on Ovid and even published on him. I’m not a fan though of politicizing classics in this way, neither as a means of teaching traditional virtues or to support sjw causes.

Thursday1
Thursday1
3 years ago
Reply to  Jonny-O

I’ve read all of Ovid as well. You seem to be one of those professors who, whenever their favourite author says something stupid, blames it all on irony. Sorry, but there is no indication in the Art of Love, or anywhere else, that Ovid secretly believed that flattery and gifts were ineffective.

Jonny-O
Jonny-O
3 years ago
Reply to  Thursday1

The issue I am talking about is how the genre of didactic poetry is understood in antiquity and practiced by most poets. The genre is not designed to be a factual or accurate or express an author’s personal beliefs on a subject. If people wanted factual information, on farming say, they would read Columella or Varro, not Vergil’s Georgics or Hesiod’s Works and Days; if someone wanted to know about snakes, they’d read Aristotle or Theophrastus or Hippocrates or Galen, not Nicander’s Theriaca and Alexipharmaka. Even Aratus makes several mistakes in the Astronomica, a poem permeated by praise for monarchy and Hellenistic rulership. Most scholarship has shown, and I agree, that ancient didactic poems are not really about conveying facts and information, but rather about discussing more abstract concepts, like human society, politics, or culture under the guise of a seemingly benign subject. Such an approach to the genre as not entirely serious about its stated subject or intention as a source of facts or beliefs is shown by both Servius’ commentary on the Georgics as it relates to human society and politics, rhetorical works that are didactic but designed not to teach but serve as a showpiece for ability in rhetoric, and someone like Lucian’s interrogation of Hesiod and criticism of Hesiod’s factuality altogether in ancient authors. Thus, given the generic concept of didactic poetry (and I do indeed except Lucretius as philosophical didactic) it is unlikely that the original audience would have read Ovid’s Ars Amatoria as a serious poem about its stated subject that was meant to convey Ovid’s honest and serious thoughts about erotic culture, especially given the irony found throughout his other elegiac works like the Amores. Rather, it’s designed, like most other didactic poetry, to serve as a commentary on contemporary culture and Augustan politics, a strain of thought that runs throughout Ovid’s Fasti, Metamorphoses, Heroides, and Tristia. Even the Ibis, an invective, is so hedged in by conflicting mythological paradigms and modeled on Hellenistic precedents is likely to be more a showpiece rather than a serious invective against a foe.

But let’s consider Ovid’s other didactic works to see his view of didactic poetics. We have, for instance, the Medicamina Faciei, a poem which is clearly not meant to be a celebration of cosmetics but rather a showpiece, much like orators were asked to praise difficult or weird subjects, like Lucian’s praise of the fly or Dio’s praise of baldness. It demonstrates Ovid’s versatility and ability. How about the Pythagorean didacticism in Met. 15? In reading Pythagoras’ praise of vegetarianism, concepts of the evolution and instability of the cosmos, it would be, I think, mistaken to assume that Ovid included it because he was religiously or philosophically Pythagorean. Rather, the constant cosmic instability reflects the theme of change and metamorphosis and provides a bookend that answers Ovid’s cosmic philosophical opening to the poem. Additionally, it undermines the celebration of the permanence of Augustus and Rome with which he closes the Met. Additionally, let’s consider how the Ars finds its way into the Met, in the story of Byblis and Nisus, where love advice advocated in the Ars proves to be disastrous mythologically. Ovid’s irony reflected in his use of the didactic mode elsewhere undermines the seriousness of the Ars.

But even within the Ars, it’s clear that Ovid has ironic intentions, is not entirely fixated on his subject, and discusses things that he may not enitrely believe. In the opening, Ovid disavows divine inspiration, that characterizes most didatic. For ancient readers, not making a pretense to the Muses, Apollo, or the gods’ help already undermines a claim of poetic authority. That in itself marks the poem as not “serious” didactic, since the gods are conveyors of truth, while experience in the generic constraints of poetry is not authority-making. These lines as well “I sing of safe love, permissible intrigue/ and there’ll be nothing sinful in my song.” in itself is ironic, as Augustus’ marriage and family legislation, as well as his ideals of Roman purity, would make Ovid’s seduction techniques, especially the affair at the banquet, inappropriate and illegal. What about his discussion of the triumph of Augustus in Book 1? He spends dozens of lines departing from his theme to “praise” Augustus’ victories, but then portrays the lover as someone who doesn’t care about Augustus or the empire, who makes up random information. What about lines like “Whoever you are, lovers everywhere, attend, with humble minds,/ and you, masses, show you support me: use your thumbs.” that demonstrate a lack of faith in his own veracity as determined by the viewers and not himself or the gods? Consider the mythological exempla he uses in 1 for the girl you’re going after, Byblis, Myrrha, Pasiphae, all crazy women. Is that the kind of girl Ovid’s lover is seeking? It’s supposed to be funny, to be an undermining of his theme. What about the exempla for male beauty, Theseus, Hippolytus, and Adonis? In every one of those circumstances, the men either were killed or abandoned their lovers. Should the Ars’ lover want to emulate Hippolytus who was killed? Again, irony. Again, when he talks about the pale sickliness a lover should portray, he uses Daphnis as an example (who btw committed suicide over love). Daphnis is a prime poetic example of the lover in Roman elegy, whose conventions celebrate the sickly, obsessive beta lover, as in Propertius. Ovid by advising his tutees to behave like the elegists who always lose their girl and are surrounded with failure is making fun of the whole genre of elegiac poetry as over the top and ineffective.

Thus, given this information, I feel quite justified in taking the Ars as a non-serious poem. Rather, it’s comedic and ironic because the poet as teacher in it is giving advice for failure and keeps undermining his own points with his mythological exempla, which form his “evidence”. Additionally, it engages clearly with Augustan politics in a subversive way, as Ovid does in other poems and in didactic passages elsewhere. Finally it’s a showpiece, a capstone to Ovid’s elegiac poetry, the Amores and Heroides.

Thursday1
Thursday1
3 years ago
Reply to  Jonny-O

Ovid regards seduction as fun and naughty, but also ridiculous and sometimes dangerous. None of this has anything to do with whether he thinks gifts and flattery do or do not work. One can mock the whole enterprise of seduction, as well as contemporary mores, while at the same time thinking that the advice in the poem works.

At best what you’ve shown is that classical didactic poems don’t necessarily represent the considered views of their author. But there is still absolutely nothing in your analysis to show that Ovid’s advice in the poem is ironic.

Your analysis of Ovid’s disavowal of the gods doesn’t impress me. Ovid, following Lucretius, is skeptical of religion and the gods, so a his disavowal is not something of grave import. If you’re not a believer, why would you bloody expect the gods to certify your poem? Similarly, most hot women are crazy and dangerous, but that doesn’t mean we don’t genuinely want to fuck them. Finally, the lover in The Art of Love, for all his emphasis on gifts and flattery, is rather cool and cynical. Despite his beta technique, he is not mooning over his lovers.

As I have said, professors will use “irony” to justify anything. Fuck this is stupid.

Jonny-O
Jonny-O
3 years ago
Reply to  Thursday1

Ah, well, read divorced from its context as an abstract text where you simply analyze the advice for its functionality from a modern philosophical and mores-based perspective, I can accept a reading such as yours. I tend to read with a far more focused historicist and generic-conscious perspective, but I am fine with alternative readings, should the frameworks be identified and acknowledged. I would say that you should avoid claiming authorial intention in such a reading, though, if you are going to avoid historical and literary contextualization.

I do think your approach to Ovid’s religiosity is a problem. Keep in mind there is no orthodoxy or even belief standards in Roman religion, no creeds or rules about what people personally think and most importantly, following Paul Veyne, ancient people rarely seem to show a consistency or even a drive toward resolving intellectual and belief contradictions into a coherent system. Rather belief in ancient thought seems much less consistent and to be based on context and even whim rather than some inner drive toward a uniform consistency of thought or values. Even Seneca constantly reverses his positions and beliefs depending on his topic. Since we do not have anything with which to judge Ovid’s beliefs beyond his works, I’d say we cannot with any certainty claim that Ovid had an Epicurean scepticism or not. Besides, if Ovid truly did not believe in the gods at all, then why claim their inspiration in the Met. or Fasti? Clearly his abandonment of divine inspiration serves a specific function here beyond a statement of Ovid’s personal scepticism. Rather, we can only judge the various authorial personae he presents. In taking on the didactic persona, which is supposed to be inspired by the gods, as Hesiod was, disavowing the gods or any authority really beyond his experience is undermining and ironic because the persona, well established in the didactic genre, he has assumed does not act in that way. Consider, even Lucretius, though he condemns divine authority, still paints Epicurus as an alternate poetic inspiration. There are not many works in antiquity of poetry that disavow the gods or some authority figure as a basis of inspiration, source of knowledge, and authority. Read Plato’s Ion or the Republic and you can see how ancients conceptualized the gods as an authority making device in poetry, even if it is disingenuous and does not reflect personal belief. It’s part of poetic expectation and convention. Not doing so has the effect of making a poem non-serious and non-authoritative in an ancient perspective.

Thursday1
Thursday1
3 years ago
Reply to  Jonny-O

More bullshit.

I tend to read with a far more focused historicist and generic-conscious perspective

You’re using this as an excuse to ignore the actual text.

no orthodoxy or even belief standards in Roman religion, no creeds or rules

Irrelevant. Orthodoxy was not important to pagans, but piety sure as hell was. And Ovid sure ain’t pious.

(Piety, of course, requires some level of belief, as you have to truly believe in the gods existence to respect them: it just does not require the kind of detailed knowledge claimed by religions like Christianity or Islam.)

Consider, even Lucretius, though he condemns divine authority, still paints Epicurus as an alternate poetic inspiration. There are not many works in antiquity of poetry that disavow the gods or some authority figure as a basis of inspiration, source of knowledge, and authority.

“Some authority figure.” This collapses some really crucial distinctions. Lucretius does not treat Epicurus as a god.

—–

You sure can pile up the verbiage. Helps when you’re trying to defend an untenable position.

Jonny-O
Jonny-O
3 years ago
Reply to  Thursday1

Tell me then, if Ovid has no pietas, do you think he would have done things ancient pagans would have considered impious themselves? It’s not impious to be critical of the gods, portray them in funny, ridiculous, or subversive ways. It’s not impious to use the gods as your personal mouthpiece. Every ancient author does that, and it’s not considered blasphemy, which is a much more Christian/Jewish idea. I feel like you’re treating paganism through a Christian lens. What would be impious to pagans would be refusing to sacrifice, misperforming a ritual, defiling a sanctuary, destroying a statue, or violating taboos, like incest, suppliants, or xenia. We don’t know that Ovid did any of those impious acts. I see little in Ovid that would conform to ancient ideas of impiety or outrage to the gods.

Lucretius uses the language of epic poetry that is used for gods and applies it to Epicurus. In doing so, he signals to the reader that Epicurus holds a place within the DRN analogous to the gods in epic poetry. Thus, he elevates Epicurus, though not a claimed god, into the authority of the gods. Besides, neither Epicurus nor Lucretius claim that the gods do not exist. The opening of DRN is dedicated to Venus. Rather they believe the gods exist but do not care about humans because they have attained ataraxia, or the Epicurean ideal of dispassion. They exist but do not interfere with humans and the problem is the human conception of them is perverted by religion, so their true existence is not well known.

From De Rerum Natura Book II:
“For all the gods must of themselves enjoy
Immortal aeons and supreme repose,
Withdrawn from our affairs, detached, afar:
Immune from peril and immune from pain,
Themselves abounding in riches of their own,
Needing not us, they are not touched by wrath
They are not taken by service or by gift.
Truly is earth insensate for all time;
But, by obtaining germs of many things,
In many a way she brings the many forth
Into the light of sun. And here, whoso
Decides to call the ocean Neptune, or
The grain-crop Ceres, and prefers to abuse
The name of Bacchus rather than pronounce
The liquor’s proper designation, him
Let us permit to go on calling earth
Mother of Gods, if only he will spare
To taint his soul with foul religion.”

Jonny-O
Jonny-O
3 years ago
Reply to  Thursday1

And again, if Ovid has no belief in the gods, why does he claim their inspiration in the opening of the Metmorphoses and throughout the Fasti?

As to your critique of using history and genre to understand a text, you are free to explore a text as a New Critic, looking at a text alone without any other information to inform your reading. I simply think that leads to somewhat superficial understandings.

Note, I’m actually impressed by your abilities as well as the amount you have read. Don’t take what I say as a direct criticism of you or disrespect. It’s always nice to speak to someone who has intelligence and a familiarity with literature.

OMGlaucon
OMGlaucon
3 years ago
Reply to  Jonny-O

One hell of an argument guys…

Jesse White
Jesse White
3 years ago
Reply to  Thursday1

Ovid was clearly self confident, though. One of the earliest books on game, regardless of any flaws it might have had.

Clark Kent
Clark Kent
3 years ago

“Instead we must endure adult children who shriek out in pain as they strike us”

Hubert Cumberdale
Hubert Cumberdale
3 years ago

Donna Zuckerberg. Another extremely white person… it’s always an extremely white person.

corvinus
corvinus
3 years ago

Extremely (((white person))), in her case.

Farm Clarity
Farm Clarity
3 years ago

Uhm , no offense , but jewish aint white .
white is causcasian , slav etc .
Even khassar jews ain’t white nor sephardic .

PresenceLOVE
PresenceLOVE
3 years ago
Reply to  Farm Clarity

No, there is a difference between Jew’s and Jewish. That’s why they say JEW’ISH… because they are not really jews. They just play at being Hebrew. Jewish peeps are usually caucasians.

Burner Prime
Burner Prime
3 years ago

No, her name is: “Mark Zuckerberg’s Sister”, a.k.a. ‘house ho’.

Samseau
3 years ago

“What goes around comes around—you’ve manipulated the minds of millions people who use Facebook, censoring the truth from them, and now we own the mind of your sister.”

Ahahahahahaha, bravo.

Thursday1
Thursday1
3 years ago

I like how she isn’t even really a person in her own right. Her whole identity is being the sister of the world’s goofiest billiionaire.

spro23
spro23
3 years ago
Reply to  Thursday1

Both her and Sheryl sandberg are jew women who attached themselves to an intelligent man. Not surprising. Their wealth and place in this world is due to being around the right man.

Ravi Macho
Ravi Macho
3 years ago
Reply to  Thursday1

Well said. Ironically, that’s almost ALWAYS been the case with majority of cunts (through out the history) but they will NEVER accept & acknowledge the reality and superiority of MASCULINITY.

disqus_2015ScorpioWater
disqus_2015ScorpioWater
3 years ago
Reply to  Thursday1

And even more ironic about this is that Mark Zuckerberg is a male feminist.

Roosh
3 years ago

Our house ho behaves in a way that is completely framed by our work.

Jak@AKingsCastle
3 years ago
Reply to  Roosh

It’s always satisfying when they accept the rules we’ve laid out for them. Even when they “break” the rules, they’re still following them. Love it.

Donna, you keep being oh so rebellious. It’s adorable.

Burner Prime
Burner Prime
3 years ago

You nailed it. Rollo needs to psychoanalyze her.

Jak@AKingsCastle
3 years ago
Reply to  Burner Prime

Shoot the suggestion over to him. I’m sure he would love to. It sounds right up his alley.

Burner Prime
Burner Prime
3 years ago
Reply to  Roosh

Totally in her head.

White Prowler
White Prowler
3 years ago
Reply to  Burner Prime

Rent free. Living there.

Shmalkandik
Shmalkandik
3 years ago
Reply to  Burner Prime

“the Cambridge ladies who live in furnished souls
are unbeautiful and have comfortable minds”

percent asian
percent asian
3 years ago
Reply to  Roosh

She just likes saying “manosphere”, because no one else knows what a manosphere is. She “discovered it”. It’s edgy and hip.

Burner Prime
Burner Prime
3 years ago

Is that a real tweet? Wow she really is obsessed w/ROK. I think when she mentioned Roosh’s beard, that was a tell she is swooning over him.

Jak@AKingsCastle
3 years ago
Reply to  Burner Prime

SJW’s always project so I imagine you’re correct.

TheLastConservative
TheLastConservative
3 years ago

I guess when you’re that ugly, might as well complete the picture….

disqus_2015ScorpioWater
disqus_2015ScorpioWater
3 years ago

Imagine waking up to that in the morning? Whoever her boyfriend is, must be a complete cuck.

Thursday1
Thursday1
3 years ago

The “hotter” pics* seem to be from when she was young, and, at her best, she seems to have been in the 6-7 range most thin women under 25 occupy. However, she seems to have been eating a lot of those scones. That and getting old have been extremely unkind to her. The wall is nigh.

phluff127
phluff127
3 years ago

I enjoyed this very, very much. The shiv runs deep. P.S. Hi, Mark!

Roosh
3 years ago
Reply to  Thursday1

She married an economically successful Jewish man. Her babies will certainly not be mixed-race or multicultural.

Andrew Phillip
Andrew Phillip
3 years ago
Reply to  Roosh

I was just going to say, why did she not get knocked up with some chocolate? I mean, come on! Let us see the elites follow their own rules and edicts for the rest of society.

White Prowler
White Prowler
3 years ago
Reply to  Roosh

Inbred af

SOL
SOL
3 years ago
Reply to  Thursday1

This is the plan good enough for everyone else…

spro23
spro23
3 years ago

Look at those fat arms. Quit eating bitch!

Standing next to Jessica Alba only accentuates her hideous body.

temmy9 .
temmy9 .
3 years ago

All this woman had to do was simply ignore us. Instead she chose to engage and now can played like a puppet. Our own little controlled opposition. I’ll bet we could get her to put on clownshoes if we framed it properly.

Jak@AKingsCastle
3 years ago
Reply to  temmy9 .

Just hide it in the list of stereotypical feminist traits and they just might.
Fat, ugly, blue-haired, clown shoe wearing, tattooed/pierced, shrieking feminists.

AntiDem
3 years ago

Between this and that bitch who went after Richard Spencer’s mom, it’s been a bad week for pushy Jewish broads who thought that starting a fight with the alt-right was a good idea.

disqus_2015ScorpioWater
disqus_2015ScorpioWater
3 years ago
Reply to  AntiDem

White privilege died decades ago and was replaced with White Jewish privilege as Jews are predominantly white in the US but not in Israel are the dominant and most privileged group of people in America. White middle class America has been screwed for the past 9 years, starting with the global financial crisis, but white America was in decline well before that. Jews pushed diversity and feminism, its interesting how they avoid this in their own communities. For Orthodox Jews, a woman needs special permission to divorce their husbands, which is extremely difficult. A white Christian woman just has to serve her husband papers, and its over, as well as the courts working against men and forcing them to hand over their assets, children, and dignity
I ran into a blogger who was bitching about blacks, Muslims, and Hispanics ruining his once white neighborhood. I mentioned that Jews are a big part of forcing multiculturalism on Western countries, and encouraging minorities not to integrate into society. He quickly rebuffed me, but he was clearly an idiot, focusing on the wrong people. Minorities are mostly pawns.

Graft
Graft
3 years ago

Oh great, a fight with ((Zuckerberg?)) The guy who has our data? Us younger guys have been on Facebook since we were in high school and college, so we have considerable amounts of data and messages on there. We should try to delete it.

Jak@AKingsCastle
3 years ago
Reply to  Graft

Cancel your Facebook or, like you say, at the very least remove all personal data from your account.

pabo
pabo
3 years ago

“While you were mincing around the halls of Princeton University, I was leading Marines in Okinawa and East Asia.”

So they were both serving the elites….to the detriment of liberty, so what?
The military is beta.

Major General Smedley Butler of the United States Marine Corps says…

“Like all members of the military profession I never had an original thought until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of the higher- ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service”

“I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during
that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big
Business, for Wall Street and the bankers.

In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico
safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a
decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I
helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the
benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International
Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the
Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped
make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested.”

$101572105
$101572105
3 years ago
Reply to  pabo

Men can gain valuable personal skills and qualities in the military, regardless of the debatable ‘serving the elites’ line. Medieval knights served the king, yes?

pabo
pabo
3 years ago
Reply to  $101572105

True. A few military men learn valuable skills in military. However, as the good Major General said, in so many words, he is still a beta cuck who makes money off of working taxpayer men and who cucks his life and limb to make money for General Dynamics and boys. All the while cuckvincing himself that is “fighting for our freedom”.

Snowden
Snowden
3 years ago

Jesus Christ would someone please tell that girl to lose some God damn weight.

Chance Boudreaux
Chance Boudreaux
3 years ago

I’ve been a reader since the DC bachelor days and I must say I am pleased and impressed with the direction Roosh took.

Burner Prime
Burner Prime
3 years ago

It’s pretty clear the ‘house ho’ has a big clit boner over ‘ground zero’ for masculine men: ROK. Her pedo-faced man-child husband is definitely not giving her the pimp hand and L.D. she craves.
I mean what feminist is addicted to ROK? I never read Jizzabel or Oprah or other feminist sites. I don’t even know which ones are out there.
We’ve seen time and again when low SMV womerns are summarily rejected by the alphas they crave, they go into attack mode spouting the same tired and worn name-calling. She’s (literally) a year late to the party and 1000 words short, copy/pasting tired accusations.
The ‘house ho’ should go over to Rational Male and read all about herself in scientific detail; we’ve already figured out her simple mind and it was found wanting boring.
Looking at her body shot photo, I rate her a 4/10. That chunky fat body is just repulsive.

PresenceLOVE
PresenceLOVE
3 years ago
Reply to  Burner Prime

Your being way to generous mate…that’s a 3/10 at best. I suppose if you consider how much she is worth $$$ we could bump it up a notch.

OMGlaucon
OMGlaucon
3 years ago
Reply to  Burner Prime

Keeping the Greek theme going, “sour grapes” as the fable goes for the women that troll ROK.

Burner Prime
Burner Prime
3 years ago

Dude can’t even GROW a beard. Now I see what all the fuss is about. Has his nuts even dropped?