ISBN: 1414309473

The most interesting books of the Bible for those who aren’t believers in God are the wisdom books of Job and Ecclesiastes. Written from a philosophical point of view, they attempt to help people live with suffering and pain while putting existence into context.

Book of Job

bookofjob

Job is a devout believer in God who follows all of His rules. He has been blessed with incredible wealth and numerous children. Satan then challenges God by arguing that Job is only faithful because of what he has gained, and that he would immediately curse God if everything was taken away from him. God allows Satan to destroy him, taking his wealth and killing all of his children.

Once the misfortune befalls Job, his wife implores him to curse God, but Job refuses. Instead, he openly laments at why God is allowing him to suffer. He even asks God to allow him to die.

I would rather be strangled—
rather die than suffer like this.
I hate my life and don’t want to go on living
Oh, leave me alone for my few remaining days. (Job 7:15-16)

Why make me your target?
Am I a burden to you?
Why not just forgive my sin
and take away my guilt?
For soon I will lie down in the dust and die.
When you look for me, I will be gone. (Job 7:20-21)

What do you gain by oppressing me?
Why do you reject me, the work of your own hands,
while smiling on the schemes of the wicked? (Job 10:3)

He then has a series of poetic dialogues with priestly men in an attempt to explain God’s justice. Job asks some pointed questions, implying that those who are eager to sin seem to experience more prosperity than those who closely follow God’s words.

The godless seem like a lush plant growing in the sunshine,
its branches spreading across the garden.
Its roots grow down through a pile of stones;
it takes hold on a bed of rocks.
But when it is uprooted,
it’s as though it never existed! (Job 8:16-18)

When a plague sweeps through,
he laughs at the death of the innocent.
The whole earth is in the hands of the wicked,
and God blinds the eyes of the judges.
If he’s not the one who does it, who is? (Job 9:23-24)

Just like how there are so many laws in the legal code that you are always on the hook for something illegal, there are also so many possible sins that it may be impossible to live a clean life.

Whatever happens, I will be found guilty.
So what’s the use of trying?
Even if I were to wash myself with soap
and clean my hands with lye,
you would plunge me into a muddy ditch,
and my own filthy clothing would hate me. (Job 9:29-31)

The men that Job spills his guts to state that he’s sinning in some way and knows nothing about how God works, and that he must grin and bear it instead of questioning God’s actions.

Pay attention to this, Job.
Stop and consider the wonderful miracles of God!
Do you know how God controls the storm
and causes the lightning to flash from his clouds?
Do you understand how he moves the clouds
with wonderful perfection and skill?
When you are sweltering in your clothes
and the south wind dies down and everything is still,
he makes the skies reflect the heat like a bronze mirror.
Can you do that? (Job 37:14-18)

God appears and asks Job how dare he question His actions, even though those actions amounted to an agreement with Satan.

Who is this that questions my wisdom
with such ignorant words?
Brace yourself like a man,
because I have some questions for you,
and you must answer them.
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell me, if you know so much.
Who determined its dimensions
and stretched out the surveying line?
What supports its foundations,
and who laid its cornerstone
as the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy? (Job 38:2-7)

God goes on to describe his powers and then serves a “How dare you?” argument to Job, who then accepts his utter impotence.

Then the LORD said to Job,
“Do you still want to argue with the Almighty?
You are God’s critic, but do you have the answers?”
Then Job replied to the LORD,
“I am nothing—how could I ever find the answers?
I will cover my mouth with my hand.
I have said too much already.
I have nothing more to say.” (Job 40:2-5)

You asked, ‘Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorance?’
It is I—and I was talking about things I knew nothing about,
things far too wonderful for me.
You said, ‘Listen and I will speak!
I have some questions for you,
and you must answer them.’
I had only heard about you before,
but now I have seen you with my own eyes.
I take back everything I said,
and I sit in dust and ashes to show my repentance.” (Job 42:3-6)

Other parts of the Bible channel Job by asking why bad on Earth is allowed to continue:

Wake up, O Lord! Why do you sleep?
Get up! Do not reject us forever.
Why do you look the other way?
Why do you ignore our suffering and oppression?
We collapse in the dust,
lying face down in the dirt.
Rise up! Help us!
Ransom us because of your unfailing love. (Psalm 44:23-26)

And the usual response is to not question God:

What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.
Does a clay pot argue with its maker?
Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim,
‘How clumsy can you be?’
How terrible it would be if a newborn baby said to its father,
‘Why was I born?’
or if it said to its mother,
‘Why did you make me this way?’ (Isaiah 5:9-10)

After Job stopped questioning God, he was rewarded with even greater prosperity than before:

So the LORD blessed Job in the second half of his life even more than in the beginning. For now he had 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 teams of oxen, and 1,000 female donkeys. He also gave Job seven more sons and three more daughters. He named his first daughter Jemimah, the second Keziah, and the third Keren-happuch. In all the land no women were as lovely as the daughters of Job. And their father put them into his will along with their brothers. Job lived 140  years after that, living to see four generations of his children and grandchildren. Then he died, an old man who had lived a long, full life. (Job 42:12-17)

You have to be patient with God:

Those who plant in tears will harvest with shouts of joy. They weep as they go to plant their seed, but they sing as they return with the harvest. (Psalm 126:5-6)

The lesson of this story seems to be one of stoicism: accept your fate, don’t question it, and understand that what you have now can be taken from you at a moment’s notice if God wants to, no matter how cleanly you have lived in his honor. Ironically, this book did more to make me question God’s wisdom than any other.

Book Of Ecclesiastes

Ecclesiastes-quote

The next wisdom book is Ecclesiastes, purportedly written by King’s David son, Solomon, who amassed one-thousand wives during his reign as King of Israel. His wife collection led to him serving other gods, and he was punished for it when God broke up the Kingdom of Israel. Ecclesiastes is the book that Solomon wrote at the end of his life, sharing all that he learned.

“Everything is meaningless,” says the Teacher, “completely meaningless!” What do people get for all their hard work under the sun? Generations come and generations go, but the earth never changes. The sun rises and the sun sets, then hurries around to rise again. The wind blows south, and then turns north. Around and around it goes, blowing in circles. Rivers run into the sea, but the sea is never full. Then the water returns again to the rivers and flows out again to the sea. Everything is wearisome beyond description. No matter how much we see, we are never satisfied. No matter how much we hear, we are not content. History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new. (Ecclesiastes 1:2-11)

What is the point of accumulating wisdom in life? Why work hard?

For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. (Ecclesiastes 1:18)

I thought, “Wisdom is better than foolishness, just as light is better than darkness. For the wise can see where they are going, but fools walk in the dark.” Yet I saw that the wise and the foolish share the same fate. Both will die. So I said to myself, “Since I will end up the same as the fool, what’s the value of all my wisdom? This is all so meaningless!” For the wise and the foolish both die. (Ecclesiastes 2:13-16)

So what do people get in this life for all their hard work and anxiety? Their days of labor are filled with pain and grief; even at night their minds cannot rest. It is all meaningless. (Ecclesiastes 2:22-23)

All is vanity:

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Promiscuous and bad women are sent forth as a punishment from God:

I discovered that a seductive woman is a trap more bitter than death. Her passion is a snare, and her soft hands are chains. Those who are pleasing to God will escape her, but sinners will be caught in her snare. (Ecclesiastes 7:26)

Solomon tries to convince himself that evil will not prosper, but he can’t help coming back to the fact that it does:

When a crime is not punished quickly, people feel it is safe to do wrong. But even though a person sins a hundred times and still lives a long time, I know that those who fear God will be better off. The wicked will not prosper, for they do not fear God. Their days will never grow long like the evening shadows. And this is not all that is meaningless in our world. In this life, good people are often treated as though they were wicked, and wicked people are often treated as though they were good. This is so meaningless! (Ecclesiastes 8:11-16)

At this moment, it seems that Solomon goes off the rails by seemingly promoting a life of debauchery:

So I recommend having fun, because there is nothing better for people in this world than to eat, drink, and enjoy life. That way they will experience some happiness along with all the hard work God gives them under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 8:15)

One interpretation of this is that if you live in sin like Solomon, you will eventually come to the conclusion that life is meaningless, all is for naught, and the only purpose is to have fun. The book may have been included in the Bible to serve as an example of what will happen to you if behave as Solomon and come to the end of your life thinking that it wasn’t worth it. I hope this was the intended result because otherwise it would cause you to lose faith in God’s own wisdom in justice, just like with Job.

The wisdom books of the Bible raise questions of God’s justice and plans for his human subjects. Why do people suffer or prosper? Why does life feel like it’s not being guided by God? These questions vexed the Jews enough that they honored other God’s to get more immediate results. And then Jesus Christ came along to say that it will all be worth it—not necessarily now, but in the eternal afterlife, as long as you accept him as your savior.

Read Next: The Old Testament’s Position On Female Behavior

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Bodichi
Bodichi
4 years ago

If Churchians bothered to open up debates about these kinds of questions maybe men would go to church.

Instead they scream and harp how men should wife up single mother sluts and self cuckold.

Bravo for taking the discussion here.

Wes
Wes
4 years ago
Reply to  Bodichi

True that. try to bring up how David prayed in Anger at God in some of the Psalms. And you make some very uncomfortable. it’s not the way they like to think. But it was God’s favorite, who was willing to express his honest anger towards him.

rms
rms
4 years ago
Reply to  Wes

Bono (huge globalist cuck, I know) has some pretty interesting thoughts and discussions on David that I’ve enjoyed listening to. A lot of them are on YouTube.

Wes
Wes
4 years ago
Reply to  rms

Yes he is a globalist but I’ve seen a lot worse out of rock stars.

John Galt
John Galt
4 years ago

Great topic. The Old Testament is full of wisdom, but outside of catholicism, I do not think many other Christian faiths read it.

Booch Paradise
Booch Paradise
4 years ago
Reply to  John Galt

Then you have a very shallow knowledge of the Protestant community. My Lutheran church is just wrapping up a Bible study of the Old Testament Prophets. Both my Evangelical Christian high school and college required courses in the Old Testament. Hell, even at the Vineyard church that I left because it got taken over by hipsters, we did both sermons and Bible studies in the Old Testament.

Bodichi
Bodichi
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

@boochparadise:disqus

Perhaps you are snowflaking. You list 2 churches, a religious high school and college that talk about the old testament. Remember the plural of Anecdote is not Data, and you have only mentioned 2 anecdotes.

Booch Paradise
Booch Paradise
4 years ago
Reply to  Bodichi

Ok sunshine, show me the hard data available that contradicts that. So far all you have is your own opinion based on your own opinion.

Bodichi
Bodichi
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

In literally 10 seconds of google search I found a pew survey that showed that self proclaimed “Christians” scored only 6 of 12 questions correctly and in general know very little about their faith. While this data does not directly correlate to churches teaching the new testament but not the old it does confirm that most don’t teach scripture period.

http://creation.com/religion-survey-reveals-ignorance-of-bible

Booch Paradise
Booch Paradise
4 years ago
Reply to  Bodichi

So you don’t think Catholics are Christians too?

Bodichi
Bodichi
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

Never said or implied that. You are obfuscating after being refuted with data. It makes you read as disingenuous.

Booch Paradise
Booch Paradise
4 years ago
Reply to  Bodichi

You’re using a study about Christians in general to make a statement specifically about Protestants. The study itself says in the header that Catholics were surveyed as well, and the summary does not have a break down. And that’s aside from the fact that the study wouldn’t show what you say it does even if it did have that break down. You are not just being disingenuous, you are lying.

Bodichi
Bodichi
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

“While this data does not directly correlate to churches teaching the new testament but not the old it does confirm that most don’t teach scripture period.”

This was my claim. It made no mention of breakdown between Catholic and Protestant. Now a quote from the study:

“The average Christian respondent to the survey answered 16 out of 32 questions correctly, including 6 out of 12 questions pertaining to Christianity.”

The survey’s conclusion:

“The bad news is that religious knowledge in general, including knowledge of one’s own religion, is abysmal.”

Since you have now accused me of being a liar, please prove it.

Booch Paradise
Booch Paradise
4 years ago
Reply to  Bodichi

The point where you said you had refuted my point with hard data.

Bodichi
Bodichi
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

If you were not so interested in being confrontational you would see the concession in this statement:

“While this data does not directly correlate to (protestant) [sic] churches teaching the new testament but not the old it does confirm that most don’t teach scripture period.”

What this means, and you appear not to want to understand, is that there is not a readily available report proving that: “Protestant churches don’t teach the old testament”. However, if all “Christians” fail horribly at scriptural knowledge, then protestants as a subset of Christians would fall into that bucket. And not knowing the old testament would fall into the bucket of not knowing scripture.

Bodichi
Bodichi
4 years ago
Reply to  Bodichi

Also, understand what I am not saying. I am not saying your churches and schools don’t teach the old testament. I am saying the majority do not. Then I conceded the data did not back up (only protestant churches not teaching the OT), but instead asserted that the majority of churches are not teaching scripture at all.

On a bell curve churches that teach scripture would be two SD or even three to the right. Not saying they don’t exist, saying they are rare.

Booch Paradise
Booch Paradise
4 years ago
Reply to  Bodichi

“You are obfuscating after being refuted with data.” What exactly was refuted? Your survey does not address what is taught in churches at all. Respondents didn’t confirm that they were church going, only that they identify as religious.

Bodichi
Bodichi
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

Please provide the quote that shows that the respondents only identify as religious but are not going to church. We are both arguing from silence as to their church attendance.

Booch Paradise
Booch Paradise
4 years ago
Reply to  Bodichi

I’m sorry but debating the menusia of a study that neither asks nor answers whether or not Protestant institutions and communities teach the Old Testament, in regards to the subject of whether or not Protestant institutions and communities teach the Old Testament, is getting to be a bit tedious.

If you want to carry on like it does either of those things and thus refutes my position, then carry on. I won’t be responding further.

Bodichi
Bodichi
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

Here is a break down by Protestant / Catholic for that same survey. BTW it looks as if Prots do marginally better.

http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey/

Jed Mask
Jed Mask
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

Catholics are NOT Christians: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/fools.htm
There’s no CHRIST in “Catholic” but there is “CHRIST” in “CHRIST-ian”. Amen.
~ Bro. Jed

Booch Paradise
Booch Paradise
4 years ago
Reply to  Jed Mask

Catholics profess the Nicene Creed. Do you believe that they are all lying or that it is insufficient?

Jed Mask
Jed Mask
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

“Nicene Creed”?! What is that? Sounds like “traditions of men” NOT Doctrine of Christ in His Word (King James Version Holy Bible [KJV]). Amen.

“Do you believe that they are all lying or that it is insufficient?”

Yeah they are lying and it is INSUFFICIENT. ONLY the Precious Holy Blood of the LORD JESUS CHRIST saves sinners from HELL and gives SALVATION unto ETERNAL LIFE: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/Doctrines/blood.htm
~ Bro. Jed

Booch Paradise
Booch Paradise
4 years ago
Reply to  Jed Mask

Well, given that you reject the Nicene Creed, I can only assume you must accept the Arian heresy, and as such are not a Christian yourself.

That or your a complete retard spouting off while being completely ignorant of the most basic history of the church.

Jed Mask
Jed Mask
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

Nope. No need to INSULT if you disagree though.
And this “Nicene Creed” of whatever it is, is NOT biblical CHRISTIAN doctrine but hellish, FALSE Catholic “traditions of men”.
Certainly NOT the Teachings of Christ. And yeah, I’m “plain ‘n simple” concerning the Word in PURITY so I don’t have no clue about some “Nicene Creed” or “Arian heresy” cuz I know it don’t have nothing to do with the Doctrine of Christ in the first place. Amen.
~ Bro. Jed.

Booch Paradise
Booch Paradise
4 years ago
Reply to  Jed Mask

I insult because you condemn the majority of people who confess by mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, men and women who are my brothers and sisters in Christ. You do so on the basis of some shitty website that was made in front page and is filled with bald faced lies. Lies you believe in because you are so pig ignorant of your faith that you don’t even know what the Nicene Creed is, and in your rush to judgment, without even googling it, decided that it’s extra scripture.

I would suggest that you read the first chapter of James, and stop being so quick to speak and slow to listen, then learn to bridle you tongue.

TheMaskedUnit
TheMaskedUnit
4 years ago
Reply to  Jed Mask

Be careful. Guard against that pride. Remember that ALL Christians are sinners. Even the Catholics.

TheMaskedUnit
TheMaskedUnit
4 years ago
Reply to  Bodichi

It’s like there are a bunch of sinners in those churches … That’s the point of being there. The only thing unwelcome in a church is pride. Ignorance, weakness, faults … come on in. We all seem to get most of it wrong. He uses the stupid to confound the wise.

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Pro Deo et Pro Patria
Pro Deo et Pro Patria
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

Do Lutherans teach you can lose your salvation?

Stenka Razin
Stenka Razin
4 years ago
Reply to  John Galt

I went to Catholic school for twelve years and later went to non denominational Protestant churchs for years. Both teach on the old testament equally in depth. That is if they teach bible at all.
As Time passed by I had to stop going to church as it became highly fem centric and populated with mostly thirsty beta men and demanding hypergamous “Christian” Ho’s, who were no different from women outside the church. These Ho’s practiced serial monogamy just like worldly women, but only with God’s so called blessing on their divorces and remarriages…or so they claimed. Afterall, they “felt” God blessed it, so “it must be true”.
“…while I was still searching but not finding…I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all”—Solomon The Wise. Ecclesiastes 7:28 (NIV)

John Galt
John Galt
4 years ago
Reply to  Stenka Razin

I stand corrected. I never heard a protestant talk about anything but the NT and most admit never reading the OT outside of a few known passages.
Finding Jesus and another mans wallet seems to be the underlying reason for women to go to church, but you can spot them a mile away.

DrTorch
DrTorch
4 years ago
Reply to  John Galt

Pfft, Roman Catholics didn’t even start reading the Bible until a few years ago, and most still don’t.

John Galt
John Galt
4 years ago
Reply to  DrTorch

Disagree, but I would say every parish is different. Plus the current Pope isn’t helping things.

Booch Paradise
Booch Paradise
4 years ago
Reply to  DrTorch

I don’t know man. When it comes to serious Christian intellectuals, we have C. S. Lewis, and Catholics have everyone else. Plus, if you look at the average education of a Catholic priest vs a Protestant pastor, I’m pretty sure the priest wins by a large margin.

DrTorch
DrTorch
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

Bonhoeffer, Francis Schaeffer, RC Sproul, That’s just 20th C.
And RC doesn’t get to claim Augustine, as the reformation hadn’t happened yet.

Booch Paradise
Booch Paradise
4 years ago
Reply to  DrTorch

That’s my bad on missing Bonhoeffer, I’d debate on the seriousness of Schaeffer, and I’m admittedly ignorant of RC Sproul.

I’d also debate on the reformation point. What about the East/West schism? Though admittedly Augustine is before that.

DrTorch
DrTorch
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

Eastern Orthodox scholars may be out there, I just don’t know them. Not criticizing them in any way.

Booch Paradise
Booch Paradise
4 years ago
Reply to  DrTorch

Same here. I’d just point out that certainly the RC can claim as it’s own any RC thinkers after that point. Just an aspie quibble.

David
David
4 years ago
Reply to  DrTorch

“And RC doesn’t get to claim Augustine, as the reformation hadn’t happened yet.”

Augustine was loyal to Pope Siricius, Pope Anastasius I, Pope Innocent I, Pope Zosimus, Pope Boniface I and Pope Celestine I. I don’t see how he can’t be claimed by the Catholic Church.

John Galt
John Galt
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

The priest recieves probably one of the best educations in the world and despite my disliking of jesuits political leftist inclinations, they are superb teachers. From the last time I looked, half of the students in catholic schools are NOT catholic.

TheMaskedUnit
TheMaskedUnit
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

Protestants also have Paul. lol It’s not our fault you don’t want him.

Booch Paradise
Booch Paradise
4 years ago

The books of wisdom in order of accessibility would be Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, and Job. So I can see not having a positive reaction to the book of Job.

I would have a different take on it as a whole. I believe that it’s basically the same message as Vox Day’s saying, that any sufficiently advanced intelligence will appear as insanity. God is not only a sufficiently advanced intelligence, but one that operates on timescales that are infinitely longer than ours. And so, because we are not smart enough, we don’t have enough knowledge, and we operate on a shorter timescale, we are not suited to judge God.

Also of note, Satan as referred to in the book of Job predates the Christian concept of Satan. A more literal translation would be accuser. .

Mark Boris
Mark Boris
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

A joke I heard: “The best words Job ever spoke were ‘The words of Job are ended.’ Only then could God get a word in edgewise.”

TheMaskedUnit
TheMaskedUnit
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark Boris

Not a joke … look it up.

Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

Sgt POG
Sgt POG
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

Do you find it funny that God let Job lose his children yet kept his bitchy wife to nag him?

Booch Paradise
Booch Paradise
4 years ago
Reply to  Sgt POG

I didn’t, but your mention of it made me laugh.

Jed Mask
Jed Mask
4 years ago
Reply to  Booch Paradise

Yeah, but at least Job’s wife “STAYED MARRIED” to him in all his calamity. I at least give her credit for that… No many women would certainly endure the hardships without being enticed by “greener pastures” elsewhere. Amen.
Plus, Job’s wife gave him more children in the end. The BLESSINGS of God. Amen.
~ Bro. Jed

TheMaskedUnit
TheMaskedUnit
4 years ago
Reply to  Sgt POG

It’s got a happy ending.

Job 42:10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.
Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
Job 42:13 He had also seven sons and three daughters.
Job 42:14 And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Kerenhappuch.
Job 42:15 And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.
Job 42:16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons’ sons, even four generations.
Job 42:17 So Job died, being old and full of days.

Stenka Razin
Stenka Razin
4 years ago

“while I was still searching but not finding…I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all” —Solomon The Wise. Ecclesiastes 7:28 (NIV)

DrTorch
DrTorch
4 years ago

Kudos that you ask hard questions.

I think that Ecclesiastes is a vitally important book of the Bible, and that churchians avoid it b/c it has hard sayings. But no study is fair or complete w/o addressing the book’s own conclusion

Eccl 11:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

God operates on a different scale than humans in everything. We don’t like it. We’re sentient beings who think we’re intelligent enough to have a say in the matter, but both Job and Ecclesiastes indicate that this is not true. Our minds are, at best, like infants before God. Our thoughts and desires are childish, unreasonable and ignorant of the reality of the universe.

None of us like to hear this, and certainly not when we’ve spent so many years obeying, sacrificing and serving God. But humility is a necessary part of a believer’s servant hood.

spro23
spro23
4 years ago
Reply to  DrTorch

That indicates God is bored so he uses humans for entertainment purposes.
Our actions, dysfunction, drama, are just a way to keep him entertained. He could crush or remove us at anytime.
Kind of like sports games have arbitrary rules, or ‘conditions’ to make it entertaining for the viewer. You’re artificially creating tension that’s why it’s entertaining.

DrTorch
DrTorch
4 years ago
Reply to  spro23

Your conclusions don’t follow in any form or fashion. Nothing you wrote is a rigorous deduction. It’s not even a worthwhile extrapolation.
It is indeed an uncomfortable proposition, fortunately it’s not the least bit sound.
You should consider revisiting the basics of logic.

spro23
spro23
4 years ago
Reply to  DrTorch

If you were all powerful, why would you create an ant colony? They’re inferior to you in every way. You get enjoyment from their shenanigans, that’s the only reason.

DrTorch
DrTorch
4 years ago
Reply to  spro23

You presume to know the mind of God?

That’s ignorant. And ironic given the very discussion.

Nevertheless, I have sired offspring, and at that time they were inferior to me in any way. But I did not do it solely to “get enjoyment from their shenanigans.”

Ergo, your proposition is trivially shown to be wrong, and so are all of your conclusions.

Sgt POG
Sgt POG
4 years ago
Reply to  spro23

Your line of reasoning is Satanic. You posit that God is the creator only to malign his motivations. Satanic, or are you a gnostic?

Sgt POG
Sgt POG
4 years ago
Reply to  spro23

For his entertainment? The orthodox term you are looking for is “For His Glory”

Aliciadjones2
Aliciadjones2
4 years ago
Reply to  DrTorch

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uncle
uncle
4 years ago

just a technicality, it’s never been explicitly said that Ecclesiastes has been written by Solomon. must be much later than that. but whoever wrote it, he knew what he was talking about.

Lunostrelki
Lunostrelki
4 years ago

“One interpretation of this is that if you live in sin like Solomon, you will eventually come to the conclusion that life is meaningless, all is for naught, and the only purpose is to have fun.” This is pretty much what leftism wants people to do. No surprise that conservative people consider socialism and similar ideologies to be masked Satanism.

Also, the Book of Job is the most hardcore part of Christian morality, though most people fail to understand it.

Mark Boris
Mark Boris
4 years ago
Reply to  Lunostrelki

Yep Job is definitely hardcore. I love the South Park episode of Job.

Marshallaw
4 years ago

“I discovered that a seductive woman is a trap more bitter than death. Her passion is a snare, and her soft hands are chains. Those who are pleasing to God will escape her, but sinners will be caught in her snare. (Ecclesiastes 7:26)”
Yokies!!……The soft hands get me every time……I can feel the flames of hell nipping at my heels!!!

Sgt POG
Sgt POG
4 years ago
Reply to  Marshallaw

“Lord make me chaste. Just not yet.”

St. Augustine

James
James
4 years ago

The point of the Book of Job is the stating of the fact that God is sovereign, not that we are not allowed to question what happens to us. The point is to learn to put our suffering in to the proper spiritual context. This world is not the end all and be all of existence. We wanted knowledge of good and evil, so we suffer the consequences of experiencing evil. Good is swell, and evil is lousy, and there was no other way we would understand that without experiencing the lousy along with the swell. And God has provided for our long term survival and out ultimate triumph over death and suffering, so, what more do you want?

Sgt POG
Sgt POG
4 years ago
Reply to  James

Isn’t it Job that feels separated from an unapproachable perfect and Holy God, and begs for an intermediary to speak to God on his lowly behalf?

What an honor Job had to foreshadow the coming of the intermediary! May my life be likewise an inspiration and a hope to ages of God’s people, through my suffering for Him, or otherwise.

But please Lord, not through my suffering. Amen.

James
James
4 years ago
Reply to  Sgt POG

My favorite part of Job is in chapter 32: Job 32
1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was
righteous in his own eyes.
2 Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the
Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he
justified himself rather than God.
3 Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled,
because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.

Mark Boris
Mark Boris
4 years ago

I’m a devout Christian but also a believer in game, hence why I’m here. It’s a wondrous day indeed when Roosh is teaching ME the bible.

Sgt POG
Sgt POG
4 years ago
Reply to  Mark Boris

Yes, you can learn about our creation and hence our creator from many aspects of it. From nature, from the stars, from sinners and from saints.

TSK
TSK
4 years ago

I heard Solomon was a real pimp and he probably fucked well over triple digits number with women. Wouldn’t surprise if it was quadruple digits but I bet he felt like a piece of shit afterward.

By the way, what ever happened to Caleb? The guy who lived long enough but strangely disappeared out of nowhere. It’s in the early part of the Old Testament. Forgot exactly which Book but I remember reading about Caleb. The dude went M.I.A.

Whether you are Christian or not, there are some wisdom worth from the Bible.

Wes
Wes
4 years ago
Reply to  TSK

The bibles says he had 700 wives and 300 concubines. And who is to say he never had a “date” or two

So at least 1000

TSK
TSK
4 years ago
Reply to  Wes

Can you provide me exactly where in the Bible that says he had 700 wives and 300 concubines? What you said is most likely correct but I just need verification that.

Wes
Wes
4 years ago
Reply to  TSK

Yeah I’ll dig that up for you. That came from my memory pretty sure it’s right though

Wes
Wes
4 years ago
Reply to  TSK

1Kings 11:3

Wes
Wes
4 years ago
Reply to  TSK

Caleb did not come out of nowhere nor disappear. If you want to be bored to death read 1 Chronicles. His predecessors and ancestors are in it.

TSK
TSK
4 years ago
Reply to  Wes

Well then maybe I should re-read the Bible. Thanks for the note on which Book (Chapters).

Wes
Wes
4 years ago
Reply to  TSK

I never could deal well with with the Chronicles. Who begat who just bored me to death just

Titan000
Titan000
4 years ago
Reply to  Wes

Notice its concerned with patrilineal succession. Very often the words “son of” or “whose Father is”
Or elsewhere. Like when David talks about going back to his father’s house. Who calls their family “my fathers house”nowadays?

Inescapably patriarchal.

Wes
Wes
4 years ago
Reply to  Titan000

And if you want to think in terms of how screwed up we are in comparison. there are a lot of Americans who couldn’t trace their family lines that way. they don’t have a father

Titan000
Titan000
4 years ago
Reply to  Wes

Patrilineal succession is a sign of a functional civilization. I mean even back in the 1950’s no American son referred to the family or their former home they are born into as their “Father’s House”. Men of Ancient Greece also seems to use the same language.

Wes
Wes
4 years ago

Ecclesiastes is a book that any talented but aging PUA will understand. I succeeded, I did it all, but what did that bring me? Vanity all is vanity

Roosh
4 years ago
Reply to  Wes

Yeah it was like a punch in the gut.

Wes
Wes
4 years ago
Reply to  Roosh

My father knew that before me. I learned it before you. But an older guy telling you that is ignored. You’re not going to know until you find out yourself. And look back and see not only that the old guys knew it. But it’s in the Bible. All I can think was “how stupid am I that this was a surprise to me”.

Steve
Steve
4 years ago
Reply to  Roosh

Don’t sulk over a book.
You want the alternative, that you had spent the last 10 years having to ask your wife’s permission to go have a beer with your friends? Does that sound more appealing?

Wes
Wes
4 years ago
Reply to  Steve

Yeah but that’s a bit of a false dichotomy. there are many other choices. Most have an upside all of them have a Down. But the realization that what you thought was perfection had a huge downside is as he said a kick in the gut

Steve
Steve
4 years ago
Reply to  Wes

I believe somewhere ecclesiates it says something along the lines of ‘do what you will, as ultimately it all ends’.

and how humans are like grass or weeds who grow for a time then die.

Wes
Wes
4 years ago
Reply to  Steve

Ecclesiates is a book that needs to be read cover to cover to be understood. Solomon states facts and thoughts pretty much as they came to his mind. It starts in despair at the vanity and uselessness of life. And it ends with reasons and purpose. Basically Frederick Nietzsche plagiarized Ecclesiates adding a different and less satisfying conclusion

Wes
Wes
4 years ago
Reply to  Steve

It can be depressing if you do not take all it offers.

bill elder
bill elder
4 years ago

Not much of an old testament guy myself – those old Yahoodies were always up to their neck in shit, not because they disobey their god but because they were belligerent wanderers always squatting on someone else’s turf then moaning when they get evicted. Crap of their own making they supernaturalize. And the whole bit about “god’s chosen people” sounds a bit like racial supremacy even by the standards of the day.

I found the only useful books in the bible are the Gospels – JC was always in the face of the same mooks that PO me – grafting politicians, manipulating elites, corrupt money changers and virtue posing priests – scribes, pharisees and money changers – the same human garbage at the top of the power pyramid we have to contend with today. He no trash-talking punk, taking on the power structure of the day and holding their crimes/hypocrisy up to them. He was also no pussy pacifist who expected followers to take it up the ring piece from bullies – “he who has no sword, sell thy robe and get one” – guy was right into self/home defense.

I figure if the Roman corporate church franchise hadn’t turned his gospels into a superstition tool to subjugate/pacify people to the will of a ruling elite, Christians would be the first ones on the front lines battling organized sleaze in banking, politics, religion and politics. JC rejected them all as running outside God’s laws. He also rejected the idea of the church (organized/stratified religion) and any church hierarchy getting between followers and God.

In the end he he takes the rap refusing to rat out his pals and gets killed for his beliefs and friends – don’t make em like that any more

JC was a great roll model – if only he had a proper place in society instead of these graven images of commie martyrs.

Jed Mask
Jed Mask
4 years ago

“The most interesting books of the Bible for those who aren’t believers in God are the wisdom books of Job and Ecclesiastes.”

Does that include you Mr. Roosh?

“Ironically, this book did more to make me question God’s wisdom than any other.”

God’s Wisdom can’t be understood by our finite human understanding. I question YOUR WISDOM… or lack thereof, unfortunately…

“And then Jesus Christ came along to say that it will all be worth it—not necessarily now, but in the eternal afterlife, as long as you accept him as your savior.”

Nope, life in Christ is GOOD NOW all the way to the Everlasting. You got it wrong there sir. Amen.

Also, as you have read, it’s clear that GOD was quite fond of Job as a servant to the point it could be said God “boasted to Satan” to how loyal a good man like Job was who truly followed and lived after his God to put Satan in check.
Job’s whole ordeal was solely a TEST from God to Job and an AFFIRMATION of God’s Faith in Job against the “Accuser of the brethren”, that ol’ Serpent, Satan himself.

Smh… lol… You’re quite “funny” in your heart concerning your Bible reading but God knows your heart Mr. Roosh.

Game, game… Game, game… Amen.

~ Sincerely,
Bro. Jed

spro23
spro23
4 years ago

God’s ‘rules’ indicate he is extremely powerful to the point of boredom. He needs human drama to keep him entertained. That’s why there’s blacks, muslims, natural disasters, etc…
He would be bored if there weren’t problems on earth, so problems are a feature of the human condition.
Kind of like a football game, for example. Made-up rules to create tension and drama for our entertainment.

Sgt POG
Sgt POG
4 years ago
Reply to  spro23

You are talking about a different God, the demi-urge. Not YHWH

Aldous Huxley
Aldous Huxley
4 years ago

Because god is not a three dimensional person, but the laws of nature itself. The laws of physics and thermodynamics.
How could one bieng create the universe in seven days? He did it unconsciously by setting these rules. Organisms disperse energy from complex organic molecules and increase entropy more than if the earth was simply bombarded by solar radiation. This is also why death exists, so those vessels can also decompose and raise entropy, guaranteeing its full maximization.

TheMaskedUnit
TheMaskedUnit
4 years ago
Reply to  Aldous Huxley

Is God, God or a subset of creation?

Aldous Huxley
Aldous Huxley
4 years ago
Reply to  TheMaskedUnit

God simply is and everything in the universe has no choice but to obey him. If god is a singular being with any hint of consciousness he must institute rules to carry out his will. Imagine every time you drew a dot, you imagined a universe within that dot. How would you percieve anything if your attention was always that focused on just infinitessimally small portions of the world? You wouldn’t, you would give that point rules and move on, which is similar to what we do in mathematics.

TheMaskedUnit
TheMaskedUnit
4 years ago
Reply to  Aldous Huxley

Ok. So is God, God or a subset of creation? For example, I am a part of creation. Is God too?

Conservative Muslim Guy
Conservative Muslim Guy
4 years ago

In the Muslim version of this story, Job patiently endures all of the trials and tribulations that God puts before him, and in fact continues to praise and thank God for whatever he has. When he finally reaches the end of his rope, he does not even directly ask God for relief, he simply says:

“And Job, when he called out to his Lord, “Difficulty has touched me, and you are the Most Merciful.” 21:83

Satan finally gives up on trying to shake Job’s faith, and God both restores and increases all that Job lost. Job is seen as a prime example of patience and accepting God’s Will. He is used to instruct human beings on how to retain inner peace despite externally adverse circumstances. It’s interesting how different the lesson is in the Bible vs the Quran.

As for Solomon, in the Quran there is no mention of the 700 wives. He’s considered a Prophet of God and was never punished by God for disobeying. Again, totally different narrative.

Robert34651
Robert34651
4 years ago

Different editor(s). All Abraham based. And if that is someone’s faith, then I support him. Judaism, Christianity, Islam are all to me the “same song, different verse”. More similarity than difference. The devil is in the details (ha-ha). Interestingly, the old Nordic religions were completely different. I think Abraham religions were based on Mesopotamian and Egyptian myths.

hv
hv
4 years ago

Interesting. Thx for adding to the discussion. I don’t see the Koranic or Islamic version of the Book of Job as being better though. the original is far more painful and realistic description of the existential angst that any thinking, reasonable human being is bound to have after being subjected to the whims of fortune. It is a brutally honest and philosophical attempt to reconcile what is clearly an amoral, uncaring, meaningless, purposeless universe and reality with a belief system that insists there is a reason and purpose to existence; that there is some sort of God; and that the universe and “God” is just and moral.

In the end, it is an empty and useless attempt to deny what is clearly and painfully obvious to almost everyone: that there really is no God or justice in this universe, and that human existence is truly arbitrary, and subject to whims and fortunes, and has no rhyme or reason. Evil and sociopathic people sometimes, or rather, often, prosper, and good, moral men with principles suffer. This is exactly the kind of outcome you expect when there is no overarching justice or moral order to reality or to this universe. Instead of accepting this painfully obvious truth, the Book of Job, and religious texts in general, demand men willingly blunt their most powerful sense, which is reason and intelligence, and throw their hands up in the air instead and pretend “God knows best.” The more honest and realistic conclusion is that if all the evidence and reason points to a universe without justice or a moral order, and where there doesn’t seem to be any real purpose or logic to events, and where misfortunes befall good, honest, pious and principled men while scheming, sociopathic and evil men prosper, then it really must be because there is no God or justice or moral order in this universe.

At that time the Book of Job and other religious texts were written, given the lack of scientific understanding of reality and life and evolution people had, it was pretty much inconceivable to even consider that life and this planet and human beings weren’t the result of some divine being or beings. In today’s day and age, however, w hen we know so much more about how life evolves, and how our planet and sun are merely one of billions and trillions in the universe, we can more easily conceive of a Godless universe that nevertheless through a timespan measuring billions of years, manages to usher into existence a planet hospitable to life, which eventually evolves into a higher order intelligence. I don’t pretend this is an easy thing to accept, or that even science can explain everything (there are still many great questions to be answered, such as how does something come from nothing, and how did the universe spring into existence, and where do the laws of the universe come from that allow some structure and order and also life) but I think it is far easier to now understand of how this planet came into existence, and how human life evolved and how we came to be on this planet… without any particular divine intervention. In fact, we know it is by a happy accident (for us humans, anyway) that an asteriod destroyed the reign of dinosaurs which allowed mammals to emerge, who we descended from eventually.

TheMaskedUnit
TheMaskedUnit
4 years ago

That Job is awesome … who needs a Savior anyway, right? God was so lucky to have servant like Job. He should be more grateful and appreciative.

Robert34651
Robert34651
4 years ago

Roosh, I suggest you go back to Buddhism or better…. Taoism for a life philosophy. Also suggest you read ” Paul and The Invention of Christianity”. Alexander The Great said it best: “I do not fear leaving this world any more than I feared coming into it.” And that is as it should be for all of us. If you can not reconcile death, you should not live. Get over it and enjoy your life. Do something or make something. Make a contribution to the world, don’t sit around pontificating about it. Get out of the loser mentality. Beta, Beta, Beta.

Robert34651
Robert34651
4 years ago
Reply to  Robert34651

Roosh, those last comments were not directed at you. They were for others.

Sgt POG
Sgt POG
4 years ago

Hi everyone. Let’s have a fight. Protestant versus Roman Catholic. Go!

jz95
jz95
4 years ago
Reply to  Sgt POG

Deism.

JESUSisLORD
JESUSisLORD
4 years ago
Reply to  Sgt POG

Fundamental Baptists vs every other denomination

Robert34651
Robert34651
4 years ago

The main lesson is that the problems of antiquity remain the same as today. This was written about two biblical books that helped people live and come to terms with their existence. …. You cannot have the highs without the lows. ……. The trick is to ignore the lows.

XXX
XXX
4 years ago

Hundreds of millions of supposed Christians in this world, a good percentage of those hundreds of millions are in more or less decent health, so why with so many hands to get things done, is the world such a mess. Oh wait the Christian can’t get their little hands dirty because only good can judge, can take a life and so on……. This screwed up earth needs well intentioned people to have power and take the future in their own hands, meanwhile Christians will keep praying for all the rot to magically disappear by some magical miracle. Humans ruined this earth and humans can try and fix it.

XXX
XXX
4 years ago

I’m not an atheist, I don’t know what I am to be honest. But when I analyze nature I keep coming to the conclusion that its not without an aim. It seems as though it aiming for something. It bothers me when people think of God only in the Judeo Christian sense. To me the Judeo Christian way of seeing God is just one interpretation of what it could be, a bad interpretation to be frank.

TheMaskedUnit
TheMaskedUnit
4 years ago
Reply to  XXX

A Christian is acceptable to God because he trusts in the work of His Son, Jesus Christ alone, not our works or righteousness.

Everybody else is basically trying to get into the Happy Hunting Ground by proving how worthy they are by following a variable list of does and don’ts to please allah …

ari
ari
4 years ago

umm, job wants a relationship with god, not a relationship with a soda pop-dispenser, basically. to love god in longing, no matter what, is what god was seeking? do we just want to use god, as if the divine were a machine? or do we want to know and be known, love and be loved? do you want a deity that you put a quarter in, and it automatically gives you a soda? do you want a mafia god- tithe your ten percent, get everything else by hook or crook?

do you love your father? do you love your mother? do you love them even if they have parkinson’s or alzheimer’s? do you love them if they are tired, illiterate coalminers? do you love them if they are far more accomplished than you will ever be? (Depths, heights?)

Job, arguably, is a theatrical piece where the writer of Job was asking – what if? The final chapter is a deus ex machina. You can ignore it.

JESUSisLORD
JESUSisLORD
4 years ago

Roosh, check out Christian pastor Steven Anderson. He knows the Bible like the back of his hand, and he’s the most hated Christian in America by leftists of all breed, that means he’s onto something. One can learn a lot from this man. I’ll post a link to a sermon on the Old Testament. This is real Christianity. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Don’t go to hell. Also, if you haven’t already study the controversy of the new modern Bibles compared with the King James. The King James is the word of God in English. None of the others and after time you can see why. Muslims are actually right when they say the Bible has been tampered with. But not the KJB and the textus receptus. Good luck to you, you’ve helped me grow a lot as a man also. I hope you get saved.

https://youtu.be/9U0kG3-qe2Q

questioningall1 .
questioningall1 .
4 years ago

You’re wrong about the book of Job. Job accused God of not allowing him to question, but when when we get to the end of the story, we find that God, in fact allowed Job to question him. And in fact, God provided for Job, because He loved Job, not because Job never questioned Him:

Job 9:32-35
32 “God is not a mortal like me,
so I cannot argue with him or take him to trial.
33 If only there were a mediator between us,
someone who could bring us together.
34 The mediator could make God stop beating me,
and I would no longer live in terror of his punishment.
35 Then I could speak to him without fear,
but I cannot do that in my own strength.