Why I’m A Registered Independent

Democratic: Yes (140) / No (95)
Republican: Yes (65) / No (133)

The Republicans saved the day.

My representative, Democrat Chris Van Hollen, voted for this bill. I warned him in several emails that I would vote against him if he did and I’m a man of my word: if a monkey is running against him I will vote for the monkey. I will also spread word at the coffee shop that our representative was so easily convinced by Bush and Paulson to give away our money.

Republicans saved the day? But the stock market tanked and lots of people have stocks in 401k’s!

It will tank regardless. Let the correction take its course. The faster is happens the faster we can divert resources to productive sectors of the economy instead of banks that deserve to rot and die and cease to exist.

The Powers That Be never made a believable connection to how this bailout would save us. “If you save the banks, they’ll start lending again for consumer car loans and credit cards!” Yes, consuming instead of producing will save us. :rolleyes:

How Voter Fury Stopped The Bailout

The proposal’s defeat was also cheered on by a number of blogs that in recent days have posted links to lawmakers’ telephone and fax numbers and urged citizens to oppose the plan. They included stopthehousingbailout.com, a Web site organized by a 37-year-old Los Angeles attorney named Morgan Ward Doran, and globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com, run by Mike Shedlock, an investment adviser at SitkaPacific Capital Management. Mr. Shedlock said in an interview Monday that his site had received 1.7 million page hits this month, which he said was half a million more than normal.

On his Web site, Mr. Shedlock has derided the proposed rescue as “a rush to judgment” that would benefit “high-flying financiers who chased big profits through reckless investments,” and as “a complete waste of $700 billion.”

“A number of people emailed me to say this was the first time that they’ve written, faxed or phoned their member of Congress,” said Mr. Shedlock, a 55-year-old resident of Prairie Grove, Ill. “Were going to phone and fax every member of Congress who voted against this to thank them. … Everyone who voted to pass this bill, we’re going to actively organize to oust them.”

The cynic in me is convinced they’ll come up with something similar and pass that instead.

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peezy
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you don’t know what you’re talking about

Tampa
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Your anger is so misplaced. Wall Street will not suffer. They are long gone good buddy. You are lost in the forest of principal

The over night lending rate TRIPLED. The market had its largest single point decline in history. Three of the five premier investment banks are gone. Names like Merril Lynch, Bear Sterns, Washington Mutual etc – are history.

When intrest rates rise to 13% and lending institutions collapse, you can have your big laugh. Thats really what this is all about isn’t it?? Trying to prove a point?? It reminds me of the Herbert Hoover followers. What makes me laugh is that nobody treats their own family members like this. If your mom or brother gets in the hole, you reach out a hand.

Everyone was in on the deal bro. Everyone who bought a house. Everyone who was soaking up credit. Everyone who was taking advantage of 0% financing to buy a car. Everyone who was re-financing the student loans at 2%. The whole country was in on it. Heck 50+% of the homes purchased in the district between 2002-2007 were financed with ARM mortgages.

So as the principal idealouges – most of which don’t have 20K to their f-ing name – sit around and watch the American banking and financial system collapse, you guys can go sit at the corner of the bar at Cap Lounge and talk about “people buying houses they can’t afford” and “slap dicks spending money they dont have” and laugh it up. Heck, order a cold one for me.

But the truth of the matter is that America is going to really be hurting in a few years, and all these slap dick Republians will be history because Americans are going to throw them all out. And the poverty rate of the districts of half of these jack ass progresives who voted against it will be 25+%.

A real winner way to live your life.

Watching those guys on the floor yesterday game their vote to get elected was the most disgusting act of leadership i have ever seen. Teachers pension funds, fire figthers retirements, seniors life savings are in that market, and free market idiots are more interested in proving a point then protecting this country.

Reminds me of the movie “A Few Good Men.” “You want the truth? I’ll give you the truth.”

This financial package “while tragic, probably saved lives. And its existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties you attend” theories and principals are more important their solvency and livelyhood of the country you live in.

A vote against the proposal was nothing but a sign of utter ignorance to the issue. I would like to think that Henry Paulson, the former CEO of our largest Investment bank, and Ben Bernanke, a PHD in economics, former head of the Council of Ecnomic Advisors and head of the Federal Reserve, know a little bit more then the free market white trash that blow up our office phone everyday jabbering on about a “Wall Street Bailout.”

I can’t wait until they all get laid off.

Ribtip
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Haha. “Republicans save the day” — that’s a good one. House Republicans facing a loss of 30 or more seats in congress are scrambling like mad to distance themselves from Bush. That’s why they voted against the bill. Let’s not pretend that the same people who brought you massive tax cuts for the upper 1%, consistently fight against health care for all or even for kids, and send thousands to die in a misbegotten war that they have now admitted was all about oil, give a shit about the economics of the little people.

Nick
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Roosh, you’re well grounded in your philosophy. America needs to revalue its assets and cut its addiction to debt. Cheap credit is unsustainable and inflates asset prices.

Just like any addiction, America needs to quit cold turkey.

Kick a Bitch
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Tampa has it right. It sucks, but it is what it is…

Kick a Bitch
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Just like any addiction, America needs to quit cold turkey.

wow, nothing like a fucking retarded bumper-sticker slogan to bring the warm-fuzzies

retard

Anonymous
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We woke up this morning and whoops… nothing happened despite the bailout failing. This is what I think, give each citizen 1 million dollars and see if the econoimy dont rebound. Thats a savings of over 690 billion.

But then what do I know, I am just looking for a freeloader chance.

virgle kent
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Roosh,

What the hell are you talking about? McCain suspended his campaign and went straight to Washington to fix this. Oh wait…. Scratch that

common sense
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In what world does solving a broken credit system by creating, uh, MORE CREDIT work? This plan deserved to fail. Better this plan collapse than our dollar, which is what would happen if we create more unnecessary streams of credit. A lot of free market analysts predicted this years ago. When you run an economy based on ridiculous and relentless borrowing, what the hell do people expect? LOGIC — more people need it.

There’s a reason someone who makes $40,000 shouldn’t be able to afford to buy a $400,000 house. This idea that we “deserve” to live beyond our means is absolutely insane.

This bailout is only an attempt to delay the inevitable. Our economy is in shambles and needs to be re-evaluated literally in order to work legitimately. Pulling credit out of thin air and printing more paper stamped with dead presidents’ faces won’t help.

There are different schools of economics — Bernanke and Paulson are in the wrong one.

messy
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messy
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The bottom line is this… a majority of the common citizens of America did not want this proposal to succeed (polls show as high as 80%-90%). Right or wrong, and despite the outcome, it is the RESPONSIBILITY AND DUTY of our elected Representatives to listen to and follow the will of their constituents (although they typically just follow their self-interests).

Tampa has no idea what he is talking about. Those who voted FOR the bill are simply trying to save their careers. They fear a total market collapse, which would in turn bring REAL change (not Obama’s version, more like Ron Paul) to government… a genuine revolution where the current regime (Dems AND Repubs) will be replaced. People who have never voted or witten to their Representatives are doing so for the first time. How refreshing.

This market has needed correction for a long time and we are finally getting it. It’s not about rich vs. poor, greed, etc. The supporters of this bill tried to sell the “no more golden parachute” idea to make it look like they were on the side of “Main Street”… what a joke. High executive salaries is not the problem. The issue is that people in this country have developed an unrealistic sense of entitlement, with no limits on how much we can spend and borrow.

The person I really feel sorry for is Obama. How in the world is he gonna raise taxes after all this? Heheh.

Miik
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Roosh – on young women and adventure I’d say you have a very readable blog – and you are an interesting character.

But on this vote thing – you’re being played.

I’ll cut through the bullshit fast using a technique called – “Ask 7 direct questions and expect the questioned person to think about the answer”. *That’s my style anyway.

1. What good has happened in 8 years?
2. Where did all of the money go?
3. Are there new bad things like wars?
4. Did they cut taxes on the wealthy again?
5. Who was in total power for 74.99% of the time?
6. Does this seem the perfect convenient way to stick blame on the Democrats when they haven’t even had a meaningful voting majority in congress in the last 8 years?
7. Are you baiting us?

answers
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7. (if so – well done)

uncommon sense
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I disagree, I emailed my congressman (who happens to be Roosh’s as well) and told him that I backed the bill.

The working fallacy is that the market correction that will take place will be stopped by congressional action. Or the flip side is that inaction is the best action to allow the market to fail. The faster the correction happens does not mean that the recovery will be quicker.

Wait. We can still re-evaluate our markets and their regulation after congress acts. This is not a one act and done situation. It will take serious thought about the national economy and what kind of nation we want. The people who think the federal reserve is unconstitutional or who want a gold standard or who want to punish those that live beyond their means will have plenty of time to do so. We obviously disagree on the consequences of inaction in this case. Urging inaction because self-styled economic experts have diagnosed the problem as hurting somebody else seems to be a poor response to a real situation.

Paul
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You know its funny- when we moved to america this was the land of opportunity. It was getting something for nothing. Looks like its impossible to get something for nothing… cause all that opportunity” was just fraud and credit

Arjewtino
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Van Hollen is my rep, too.

I love how the latest news on his web site is his important statement on 9/11.

Nope, nothing to see here, don’t look at the man behind the curtain who voted in favor of this economic clusterfuck bill.

Arjewtino’s last blog post: Profiles in Excellence: I watched Sarah Palin on TV so you don’t have to.

messy
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I also love the fact that they came up with this “fix” within a couple of days, behind closed doors, without public hearings or judicial review. Who would have imagined that years of mismanagement and irresponsible behavior could be corrected so easily?

The people in support of this bill just love sacrificing individual liberty for the sake of government. You guys probably thought the Patriot Act was a good thing too, huh?

speakeasy
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I have the feeling that this bill is far from over. Just too many powerful interests. To Tampa who said he trusts Paulson being the CEO of a top investment bank, hmm, you don’t see perhaps any conflict of interest? Has he ever said where he derived his $700 billion figure? It was pulled out arbitrarily. These guys are asking for a blank check. We’ve seen enough government spending this last 8 years, we’re tired of it. I turn on the radio and hear Bill O’Reilly scaremongering people to support it, telling them there will be violence in the streets that ensues from the recession/depression of not passing this bill. Oh geez, gimme a break.

DF
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The Powers That Be never made a believable connection to how this bailout would save us.

Exactly. In many ways this is why the bill failed and there wasn’t a large enough effort to communicate to everyday people what this is all about. The ignorance of the American people on this subject is vast.

“If you save the banks, they’ll start lending again for consumer car loans and credit cards!”

This is clearly flawed. It’s not the consumer that needs help, its corporations that require liquidity for working capital. The folks that are actually making stuff utilize the commercial paper market for their short term credit needs and banks facilitate this interaction.

I’m not trying to be derogatory here but perhaps it’s best if you walk us through what you think a correction without a bail out will look like.

DF
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The bailout failed and immediately the dollar shoots through the roof.

Yes, can you explain why? Hint: Europe

San Dizzle
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Hey Tampa,

What about the 160+ economists with Ph.D’s who wrote a letter opposing the bill? What do Paulson and Bernanke know that they don’t?

What is your Ph.D in? The weakness of your argument is made clear when you repeatedly resort to calling opponents of the bill “poor white trash”…

and why the pervasive strawman that “those who oppose the bill want the government to do nothing and let the markets fail”? Keep smoking your crack, “good buddy”.

I suggest that we let a panel of economists and congressman thoroughly examine the lawbooks and attack the problem at the root, not just throw more debt onto another debt. The crisis can be solved by smarter lawmaking. Even if …gasp… it means that there will be a transitional period where hundreds of thousands of jobs are lost as a new economic infastructure is established.

If the problem is as big as it looks to be, then the solution might very well be a REAL country-changing revolution, or an all-out civil war.

San Dizzle
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I might be kidding about the civil war thing.

Tampa
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You want to read a statement from a guy who knows what he is talking about, read Rep. Adam Putnam’s floor address. I don’t think I agree with one thing this guy stands for, but he it the nail right on the head.


Mr. PUTNAM. Madam Speaker, I thank the gentleman from Alabama for yielding.

In the past 2 weeks, we have seen the five largest investment banks in the United States be reduced to two. Last week, the largest bank in the United States failed. Over 2,000 branches spread out across this country, retail outlets where ordinary Americans, downtown merchants, farmers, students, seniors, savers relied on that bank to meet their needs, it failed last week. This morning, another major bank on the brink of collapse was purchased for $1 a share.

Last week a money market fund announced that, for the first time, they had “broken the buck,” that they could not guarantee that every dollar you put into that money market account would be retrievable on your request, and a second major money market account announced that they were closing and not accepting any new deposits for fear of the same thing happening to them.

Now, when you get beyond credit swaps and derivatives and all these complicated things that obviously not even the Wall Street traders who are engaging in them understood and start talking about the bank on the corner failing and the money market funds where every small business holds their payroll, where every saver is trying to wring out an extra half a point of interest, you have reached Main Street. You are now standing at the brink of a financial collapse that is well beyond the financial capitals of the world.

I also failed to mention, since we are not just talking about an American problem, that this weekend alone, three of the largest banks in Europe either failed or were nationalized.

So we live in interesting times, and we are watching one domino after another fall that are the pillars of our financial system here in the United States.

Now, I tried to think of the right analogy, and it dawned on me that, being from Florida, we get a lot of hurricanes, and in 2004 we had three hurricanes come across Central Florida, my home, in nine weeks, bam, bam, bam. Then a year later we watched a storm come across Florida and build in the Gulf, and it got bigger and bigger and moved faster and faster and had a bull’s eye on New Orleans, and I, like a lot of Americans, wondered why more people weren’t leaving, why more people weren’t heeding the warnings that were so obvious from the weather map of what was building into a monster in the Gulf of Mexico.

If you have ever wondered why people don’t get out of the way of an oncoming storm, a hurricane that is barreling down on top of you, despite days of notice, despite satellite imagery, despite all of the best advancements in communications, then you have to apply that same analogy to what we are seeing now; one bank after another failing, rolling out of New York, rolling out of Brussels, out of London, out of these places that seem so foreign, into our Main Streets, into our merchants’ associations, into our farmer cooperatives.

You are watching this happen. So how could you as a Member of Congress in seeing that roll across the countryside not do everything in your power to prevent it?

Nina
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There is a third party below the democratic and republicans. The bail out decision was all about it. They wanted the $700 billion of taxpayers to save financial institutions. This party is called party of Wall Street.

In 29 the paying off debts happened because many creditors accept receive less that they should. Being more simple what they did was: I owe you $100, but I can’t pay it, I will pay you with stocks when I can, but you would say to me that I could pay you $70, and we were all set.
In this case the government never had touch the taxpayer’s money.
But tell me now why no one, any expert, mention that? Because the Wall Street party doesn’t want it.
It’s so much easier, The financial industry prefers to be saved with taxpayer’s money than handle the pain. Wall Street is there sitting in the congress in both parties.
The principle of capitalism is: who get the profits have to handle losses… But is more “palatable” privatize profits and socialize losses. Right?

Anonymous
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Why would software companies, health care companies, retail companies etc. give a crap about banks? Maybe the the credit crisis is already knocking at their door:

Sept. 30 (Bloomberg) — Officials from Microsoft Corp. to Office Depot Inc. and Schering-Plough Corp. said the government’s failure to bail out the U.S. banking industry put the “entire economy” at risk unless a deal comes soon.

“The various sectors of the economy are so intricately linked, we need to recognize that the entire economy turns on what happens here,” Microsoft General Counsel Brad Smith said in an interview after the House of Representatives voted 228 to

205 yesterday against giving Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson the authority to buy troubled assets from financial companies.

Executives from across corporate America echoed the remarks, the first time Microsoft says it has weighed in on financial legislation. They called on lawmakers to put aside partisan differences and work to restore credit supplies and confidence to the financial markets. The Standard & Poor’s 500 Index tumbled the most since 1987 yesterday and the Dow Jones Industrial Average slid 778 points, the most points ever.

The liquidity crisis has spread beyond Wall Street, threatening earnings at businesses from retailers to technology companies. The Treasury’s toolkit to protect the financial system is “substantial but insufficient” after the $700 billion bailout failed to pass, Paulson said yesterday.

“It is a pity that this has developed into such a mess,”

said Fred Hassan, chief executive officer of drugmaker Schering- Plough in Kenilworth, New Jersey. “The probability of recession has gone up.”

Disbelief

General Electric Co., with businesses that span real estate, consumer finance, aerospace, energy equipment, media and health care, has talked with leaders in the House to express support for the bill, a person familiar with GE’s efforts said.

The Fairfield, Connecticut-based company, which last week reduced its 2008 profit forecast for the second time this year, believes relief needs to be injected into the system even though it doesn’t view the bill itself as perfect, the person said.

Business officials expected the bill to pass, even with government leaders predicting a tight vote. That’s why companies didn’t speak up sooner about how important the legislation was, Microsoft’s Smith said.

“I absolutely cannot believe it,” said David Cosper, chief financial officer of Sonic Automotive Inc., the third- largest U.S. publicly traded auto retailer. “I don’t think the House knows what they’re doing. We need this, the markets are frozen, banks are being taken over — it’s a crisis. I think they’re leaving it in the lurch and going on a break.”

While the Charlotte, North Carolina-based company doesn’t have any immediate liquidity challenges, Cosper said companies with debt coming due are facing major liquidity problems.

`No Credit’

“There’s no credit for businesses to work,” Cosper said.

“I’m very frustrated by it, our whole team is.”

Computer-related stocks were among the hardest hit, with the Nasdaq Composite Index sinking 9.1 percent to 1,983.73 yesterday, the most since the technology bubble burst in 2000.

Redmond, Washington-based Microsoft fell 8.7 percent and Apple Inc., the Cupertino, California-based maker of the Macintosh computer, dropped 18 percent, the most in eight years.

“It’s a flight out of riskier assets into more safe-haven types of investments,” such as consumer goods, tobacco and basic materials, said Ross Sandler, an analyst at RBC Capital Markets in New York.

Google Inc., owner of the most-popular Internet search engine, dropped below $400 the first time in more than two years.

“The dramatic volatility we’re seeing in the financial markets is clearly creating uncertainty for both marketers and consumers,” said Michael Roth, CEO of advertising firm Interpublic Group of Cos. The New York-based company is on track to meet its financial goals for 2008, he said.

Assigning Blame

Republicans and Democrats sparred yesterday over who was to blame for the measure’s failure. Democrats voted for it 140 to 95, while 65 Republicans backed the bill and 133 opposed it.

Lawmakers need to stop pointing fingers and assigning blame, said Robert S. Miller, chairman of Delphi Corp., the bankrupt auto-parts maker in Troy, Michigan.

“We are witnessing a most unfortunate and untimely collision of politics and economics,” Miller said. “This is not just about Wall Street. It is affecting Main Street. Bold action is required before there is further erosion of confidence.”

The Senate may take up the measure this week, and possibly send it back to the House, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said yesterday.

Ripple Effect

A resolution to the crisis needs to make it easier for businesses to get access to capital, said Steve Odland, CEO of Delray Beach, Florida-based office-supplies seller Office Depot.

“Our sales have been impacted as our customers have been hurting for liquidity,” Odland said in an interview. “The global economy is at stake here. The ripple effect has been far and wide and action needs to be taken.”

For other companies, the squeeze hurt their ability to raise debt. Akzo Nobel NV, the largest maker of paints, postponed a 1.6 billion-euro ($2.3 billion) stock buyback yesterday, sending the shares down the most in 19 years. The credit market seizure is hampering its ability to refinance loans.

“There’s no liquidity,” CFO Keith Nichols said in an interview. The Amsterdam-based company has 800 million euros of bonds due by the end of this year and another 1 billion euros in early May.

Don’t Panic

Microsoft will reach out to other companies to step up pressure on lawmakers, Smith said. “We’re hoping it will get turned around. It needs to get turned around,” he said.

Other officials also expressed optimism that the government may ultimately pass a bill.

“It’s still very early for anyone to express an opinion,”

real estate billionaire Sam Zell said in an interview. “I’m not sure it’s over, in terms of what Congress did.”

Zell said it’s important not to rush to make decisions, a sentiment echoed by Michael Burns, vice chairman of film maker Lions Gate Entertainment Corp.

“I’ll tell you one thing we’re not going to do, we’re not going to panic,” said Burns, whose firm is based in Vancouver and run from Santa Monica, California. “We’re going to wake up tomorrow and people will still go to the movies and watch `Mad Men’ and buy DVDs of `Weeds.’ None of that will change.”

Tampa
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America thinks there is this large disconnect between Wall Street and their lives.

Its f-ing laughable. Dude, your bank. Its going to go broke. And all that money over 250K in your IRA?? That shit is gone.

YOu know that car you want? Good luck finding a loan.

You know that college you want to attend? Hope the Stafford loan covers it all, because you are going to need cash.

You know that credit card you applied for. The interest rate is going avg 28% in about a year

That townhouse you want because you need more space?? Good luck finding a mortgage and you are going to need 25% down.

And that pension you get from your years of working for UPS or the Airlines? Yeah – its going to be a bit smaller then you thought.

Pick up a book and freakin read. I guess the free market worked us out of the Great Depression too. We didn’t have any government intervention there did we? No FDIC etc….

satan
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Banking institutions are very easy to recreate.. even if all wall streeters are put in incinerators, we can still have a very functional banking system in about 4 years.

Financial institutions (which require no significant infrastructure) were the first to recover from the soviet collapse, and the weimar collapse. Recreating other industries is much harder.

I say, let wall street collapse, nationalize and recapitalize commercial banks and start again.. the swedes did it in the 1990s. Investment banks will have to reinvent themselves.

If banks think that they can screw over people and threaten them.. here is a newsflash, most americans are so heavily in debt that they have nothing to lose. Bankers will bring about their own downfall, because economic collapse usually paves the way for populist dictators who end up killing bankers. Populist dictators usually do not like bankers because they are an impediment to their control. The people also do not have any sympathies for bankers.

This could get interesting..

satan
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And “Tampa” you might want to read some history about what people do to bankers when bankers try to screw over those who have nothing to lose.

common sense
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Tampa,

With all due respect, you’re kind of the problem here.

“And all that money over 250K in your IRA?? That shit is gone.

YOu know that car you want? Good luck finding a loan.

You know that college you want to attend? Hope the Stafford loan covers it all, because you are going to need cash.

You know that credit card you applied for. The interest rate is going avg 28% in about a year

That townhouse you want because you need more space?? Good luck finding a mortgage and you are going to need 25% down.

And that pension you get from your years of working for UPS or the Airlines? Yeah – its going to be a bit smaller then you thought.”

The American dream used to revolve around working your ass off and then reaping the rewards. You don’t reap the rewards from racking up credit card debt. Again, if you can’t afford the car, don’t buy it. If you don’t have enough liquid assets to put down 25 percent on a fancy new townhouse, rent a fucking apartment. If you can’t afford to school you want to go to, perhaps you should think about state school, a school with a large private endowment or, hmm, study harder and EARN yourself a scholarship. Perhaps you need to brush up on the definition of credit. Buying shit on credit is buying shit you can’t afford, so MAYBE YOU SHOULDN’T BE BUYING IT!

This problem of “spend, spend, spend” is the underlying problem of why the dollar is so worthless these days. It’s basic supply and demand. Printing more will only make it more worthless.

And you may want to learn a bit more about the effects of government intervention on the Great Depression: http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx?RelNum=5409. The hands-on approach didn’t work then and it certainly won’t work now, especially in the long run.

Tampa
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old common sense talks in theory, I talk in facts.

The f-ing country and economy runs on Cars, Houses, and Homes. Anybody with an A.A. can see that.

And 80+% of those items are purchased with financing.

You sound like a retard. Actually, nope you are right. Who needs the f-ing bank. Our employers pay us in cash, we send our bills through the pony express with a sack of coins. The saving rate in this country isn’t negative. Major capital expenditures aren’t made on the float.

I bet you work for dark side don’t ya?

adrock
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Yesterday’s conversation about pubes was a much happier, carefree time.

satan
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Tampa… the banks in the western world are all insolvent.. they gambled their profits with off- balance sheet credit derivatives and swaps.

The only way we can stop this is to destroy equity holders and most bondholders and recapitalize them.. DIRECTLY.. Nationalize them!!

satan
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I REPEAT.. THE BANKING SYSTEM IS INSOLVENT.. LIQUIDITY IS NO LONGER AN ISSUE!!

San Dizzle
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“The f-ing country and economy runs on Cars, Houses, and Homes. Anybody with an A.A. can see that.”

WHO sounds like a retard???

Anonymous
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Roosh, I partially agree with you bro, but at the same time this post reads almost exactly like something that would have been written directly before the Great Depression.

From Brad DeLong’s “Slouching Towards Utopia?: The Economic History of the Twentieth Century”.

“Contemplating the wreck of his country’s economy and his own political career, Herbert Hoover wrote bitterly in retrospect about those in his administration who had advised inaction during the downslide:

The ‘leave-it-alone liquidationists’ headed by Secretary of the Treasury Mellon felt that government must keep its hands off and let the slump liquidate itself. Mr. Mellon had only one formula: ‘Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate the farmers, liquidate real estate’.He held that even panic was not altogether a bad thing. He said: ‘It will purge the rottenness out of the system. High costs of living and high living will come down. People will work harder, live a more moral life. Values will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up the wrecks from less competent people’ ”

Sounds familiar, huh?. DeLong again:

“But Hoover had been one of the most enthusiastic proponents of “liquidationism” during the Great Depression. And the unwillingness to use policy to prop up the economy during the slide into the Depression was backed by a large chorus, and approved by the most eminent economists.”

DeLong goes on to quote two such economists, Schumpeter and Hayek. Here’s a take on Schumpeter:

“As Schumpeter put it, policy does not allow a choice between depression and no depression, but between depression now and a worse depression later: “inflation pushed far enough [would] undoubtedly turn depression into the sham prosperity so familiar from European postwar experience, [and]… would, in the end, lead to a collapse worse than the one it was called in to remedy.” For “recovery is sound only if it does come of itself. For any revival which is merely due to artificial stimulus leaves part of the work of depressions undone and adds, to an undigested remnant of maladjustment, new maladjustment of its own which has to be liquidated in turn, thus threatening business with another [worse] crisis ahead”

This doctrine–that in the long run the Great Depression would turn out to have been “good medicine” for the economy, and that proponents of stimulative policies were shortsighted enemies of the public welfare–drew anguished cries of dissent from those less hindered by their theoretical blinders….”

San Dizzle
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San Dizzle
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So it seems the solution is not a bailout, and inaction will certainly lead to failure.

What’s the alternative? Fix the laws. Is that too hard to do?

tnbissle
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tnbissle
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I got a car loan from my bank a week ago….
Shit is fine… the wealthy are finally getting a taste of their own medicine…good day

No Fear Here
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No Fear Here
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Tampa – you nailed it:


America thinks there is this large disconnect between Wall Street and their lives.

Its f-ing laughable. Dude, your bank. Its going to go broke. And all that money over 250K in your IRA?? That shit is gone.

YOu know that car you want? Good luck finding a loan.

You know that college you want to attend? Hope the Stafford loan covers it all, because you are going to need cash.

You know that credit card you applied for. The interest rate is going avg 28% in about a year

That townhouse you want because you need more space?? Good luck finding a mortgage and you are going to need 25% down.”

You are the problem, and people with your mentality are going to fall by the wayside in the coming months and years.

You should save to buy a car, or buy a used car that you can afford until you have enough cash (or nearly enough) for the new car.

Like the other poster said – if you can’t afford to pay for harvard, look for scholarships, or go to a cheaper school.

Ditto on the townhouse, and everything else.

Your “philosophy” is exactly what the problem is here – many people, including myself and apparently Roosh, believe that it is this unsustainable addiction to debt that needs to be purged from our economy, and it’s looking like it is finally happening.

Work hard, save your money. That’s it.

I wrote my senators in New York and told them I would vote for their opponent in the next election if they voted for a wall street bailout.

People all over the place are freaking out about the possibility of a RECESSION if we don’t pass this bailout bill. A RECESSION? That’s the financial Armageddon we’re trying to prevent with 700 fucking billion tax payer dollars?
Nigga please, a recession is nothing to be scared of, unless you are over-leveraged, under capitalized and maintaining a weak cash flow. If that describes you, well then wake the fuck up kid, it’s time to put the nose to the grindstone, work for your money and live within your means. Cash is king.

Adam Smith
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Adam Smith
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Roosh is right! Look at the market today (9/30), dumbasses: 3rd biggest gain ever.

Michelle Obama
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Michelle Obama
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For the first time in my life I can say that I’m proud of my country. Thanks House Republicans!

speakeasy
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speakeasy
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Here’s an idea. Why not pass a windfall tax on all those that profited from the housing bubble? Like all ponzi scheme, no wealth is created, it’s only shifted around. For every guy that bought an overpriced house that is now going into foreclosure, there’s some guy who bought one, flipped it for some ridiculous price and made off like a bandit with a 6 figure capital gains tax free profit. All the realtors that lied people into loans they couldn’t afford and make immense commissions, every broker than steered someone toward a loan they couldn’t afford but knew they’d get a higher commission for giving subprime loans, every appraiser that overvalued a home. All these crooks on wall street given golden parachutes after bankrupting their companies, LET THEM PAY FOR THE BAILOUT! Let the people who profitted hansomely from this real estate bubble pay for the aftermath. Leave my tax dollars out of it! That’s the plan I support. Past a big windfall tax for the real estate profiteers.

messy
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messy
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Unfortunately it will be the responsible homeowner who pays his mortgage and keeps his debt in check who will be the one who pays for this bailout. The person who works hard, saves, pays his bills on time is the one who gets screwed in the end. I can’t believe people are really trusting THE GOVERNMENT to fix this. That is is the irony of all of this. A recession? The economy can’t just grow non-stop… there are business cycles, ebbs and flows.

By the way, right now is a GREAT time to buy a house. Rates are low, prices are low, and there is a surplus in the market right now.

Tampa
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Tampa
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“I got a car loan last week, everything is fine.”

HA HA HA! Lost is forest of ignorance. How about this:

Here is the Fidelity 2045 fund. One of the most popular funds. Check out the column that says “YTD.” Yeah – that stands for Year to Date Return. Yup – it says -25%. Thats your fairfax county teachers 401k buddy.

http://content.members.fidelity.com/mfl/summary/0,,315792424,00.html

Pick up an econ book.

Anonymous
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Anonymous
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“By the way, right now is a GREAT time to buy a house. Rates are low, prices are low, and there is a surplus in the market right now.”

I wouldn’t buy right now. Sure it’s down from last year, but it’s nowhere near the bottom. The recession is just getting started. And if this rescue bill isn’t revived, there’s no telling how far house prices will fall when there’s a freeze on lending. Loose credit is what allowed prices to get as out of whack as they did. When credit tightens, prices will plunge. Credit may be getting ready to tighten immensely in coming days depending on what happens here. No way in hell I’d buy real estate right now unless at the very least, it were cash flow positive rentals.

Jewcano
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Jewcano
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For once I actually agree with you on something resembling fiscal policy.

Look, whether you guys wanted this bailout bill or not, take one thing from this. Like Roosh said, it doesn’t matter if they’re running against a monkey – take whoever your elected representative is and send their ass home. Every one of them lined their pockets while this mess got bigger and bigger, and none of them deserves your vote.

By the way, most of these posters know shit nothing about how economics work. Guys, do yourself a favor, go get some Jew drunk and have him explain to you the science of money before your fiscal idiocy finances his kids’ college fund.

Jewcano’s last blog post: The Left-Wing Mindset.

zorgon
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zorgon
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I agree with anonymous 35. I don’t like the bailout — I am a hardcore small-government type who wants low taxes, low spending, and low regulation — but at this point, the alternative is worse.

This is not a joke. We had a run on money market funds. This isn’t just about Wall Street investment bankers any more. Money market = commercial paper = the short-term (less than 90 days) credit that businesses of all sizes rely on regularly to make payments to vendors, meet payroll, etc.

On top of that, it’s looking like a significant fraction of banks worldwide may be literally insolvent. Not just facing a temporary liquidity crunch that can solved by the Fed loaning them more money… I mean, their balance sheet adds up to a negative number.

You can complain that we should have done X, Y, and Z instead, but the time for that was a year ago, not now. (For example, our tax code massively subsidizes real estate investment. If we had curtailed those subsidies 5 years ago, the outcome could have been different. But it’s too late now.)

We cannot have half the banks in the country fail. At that point you’re punishing far more innocent people than you are punishing guilty people. FDIC insurance will save the small depositors, but there is a lot of uninsured money in banks above the FDIC $100K limit or in uninsured money market funds. Not just rich folks’ money — lots of businesses, too, even non-profits.

In any event — the bailout is going to happen either way, even if the bill doesn’t pass. The Treasury and Fed will just do it the dishonest way by printing money instead of the honest way by appropriating tax dollars. Might as well do it the honest way.

Bryant
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Bryant
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Why do people compare the bailout failure to the policies of Herbert Hoover? Despite what you learn in a typical high school-level history textbook, Hoover did intervene in the market, but his interventions actually caused the recession to progress into a depression.

Stop blaming the market. The only failure that has occurred has been failure created by government intervention; the market should be absolved of blame.

The Fed’s price-fixing of interest rates created a housing hysteria, driving up housing prices above their free-market values. Now there is a call for more intervention to maintain non-free market pricing. However, government intervention, no matter how extensive or extreme, can not change the simple free market value of goods and services.

Call me an ideologue if you like. I am one of those with less than $20k to my “f-ing name,” as Tampa puts it. But the bailout will only prop up non-free market pricing, worsen and prolong our troubles over the long run, and rip off the vast majority of Americans in the process.

And Roosh is right: The House Republicans generally deserve our admiration for once. They stood against the establishment and won. The Democrats would’ve caved in if the Republicans hadn’t stayed strong.

Oh, and Tampa is a typical Keynesian. His ideology got us into this trouble to begin with.

zorgon
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zorgon
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Looks like we have a few Austrian economists here.

To the Austrians who say that the Fed caused the bubble by expanding the money supply, so the solution is to pop the bubble and let it correct: sorry, but that theory has been tested numerous times across the centuries, and it doesn’t work.

There were many foolish things in Keynes’s theories, and I am not a Keynesian, but Keynesians do have a few things right. One of them is price and wage stickiness. Especially downward stickiness. When the money supply grows, we get inflation; prices and wages go up. When the money supply shrinks, you’d think that we would then get deflation; prices and wages would go down.

Unfortunately, what *actually* happens is that nominal prices and wages stay the same, and the market doesn’t clear. You get massive unemployment, etc., because people (in a classic display of irrational human psychology at work) are unwilling to accept reductions in nominal wages and would rather risk losing their jobs — even though in a time of inflation they seem perfectly willing to accept reductions in *real* wages, as long as their nominal wage keeps going up. It’s totally moronic that people behave this way, but it’s a fact.

Basically, in the real world, deflation doesn’t work. Deflation leads to widespread, *totally preventable* misery. Other than the most well-known example, the Great Depression, this happened a bunch of times in the pre-Fed era. For example, Andrew Jackson’s deflationary policies (killing the Bank of the United States) caused the Panic of 1837.

And no, I don’t have an economics PhD, but then again, I read Advanced Macro by Romer *for fun*.

The G Manifesto
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1. What good has happened in 8 years?

Not much. This has been the worst decade ever. Artistically, culturally, musically, financially.

“GREAT time to buy a house. Rates are low, prices are low, and there is a surplus in the market right now”

Bad move. Everyone I know that is old school, have seen cycles, and made money in real estate claim the real estate market will Begin to come back in 2012.

Tampa – you made some great points.

Bottom line, have fun in DC when the economy hits bottom. I remember tuff times there.

Its not pretty.

– MPM

The G Manifesto’s last blog post: All Good Things… – Nico B engineered by Dj Noble.

Kelly
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Kelly
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Hey Roosh.

Former DC’er who left the rat race to enjoy life a little elsewhere. I am registered Independent as well. I created a T Shirt company specifically to express my lack of satisfaction with the two political parties.

Check out
http://www.other-brand.com/Political_s/3.htm

Our current two major parties are a major reason why our country are failing today. I’m not a Green Party or a 3rd party supporter, I’m just definitely not in favor of the Democrats or Republicans.

Roosh, if you want a free shirt, let me know which one you want. Email me at [email protected]. Your the only DC blog that I still consistantly read, and I’d be proud if you wore it around in DC!